Four questions for Christians

[Consilius]

If God was responsible for everyone's sense of morality, as I allegedly claimed, not only would humanity be an ant farm under mind control, but we would be exempt from all penalties desribed in law, and in the law of God himself. "God made me do it" would be a valid statement.
What I simply said was that we all have a basic sense of what is good and bad because of evolution. Religion is an official statement of what we consider right and wrong in respect to a god. Morals are laid out by God in religion, and similar ones are laid out by society. Morals exist because of people, and your sense of what is right and wrong comes from your society, which is a reflection of millenia of religion, environment, and pure circumstance. For example, desert peoples like the Israelites valued hospitality to strangers more than we do today.
And, sorry, I wasn't there when the Pope incited the Crusaders, or the Spanish conquered Mexico. I did not suggest it, I did not carry it out, and I did not support it. Neither did God. I never knew a single one of the people who did these things. Don't pin me down to their actions, and I will not blame you for Dawkins' advice to ignite religious persecution:
http://youtu.be/WuXi5Qkj-J4

[Zen Badger]

Neither did God.

The OT is FULL of passages where your evil god either murders or commands his followers to murder thousands.

I never knew a single one of the people who did these things. Don't pin me down to their actions, and I will not blame you for Dawkins' advice to ignite religious persecution:

Ridiculing your stupid beliefs is not the same as persecution.

Stop playing the victim card here. It will get you nowhere.

[Ryantology]

It is becomingi clear to me that moral relativism is every bit as real to Christians as it is to us. To a Christian (especially the Waldorfs and fraudos of the world) there is no such thing as a moral act or an immoral act; whether an action is good or evil depends entirely upon who is doing it. While we are often (and falsely) accused of deriving our morals from a 'suvival of the fittest' policy, on the other side of the fence, you have people who believe that atrocities cease to be atrocities if God is the one screaming in bloodlust. It is astounding, in light of modern horrors such as the Holocaust, that there are people who would shrug their shoulders and claim that Hitler was entirely justified, were it revealed to the that God ordered it done. Though they might insist that God never would, in spite of the examples of him directly ordering genocides right in his own book.

[LeoVonFrost]

If God was responsible for everyone's sense of morality, as I allegedly claimed, not only would humanity be an ant farm under mind control, but we would be exempt from all penalties desribed in law, and in the law of God himself.

That is where we differ in opinion. I feel that if there was a god, then he would be responsible for EVERYTHING through authorship of creation. Is this not accepted in your church? If your god was a responsible deity then I believe that it's only reasonable he should be held accountable for the moral destruction carried out in his name, furthermore I happen to believe that applying the fault to humanity alone is obscene, the sad fact is millions and millions of people were brutally killed by christians doing gods will.


You claim god gives us free will so we can decide whether to follow the rules and have eternal bliss, however if you do not know about god you get a free pass...

So bad Christians and bad 'savages' are the same. They both are denied God when they live sinful lives of unrepentance. They both go to Purgatory (I am a Catholic) if they didn't know what they were doing was wrong and strove to do good, which would be better than having done wrong while knowing it was wrong. And if they both follow their nearly identical moral codes to fullness, they both live for eternity with God.

so, why do those that do not have the means to know god have free will?

I did not suggest it, I did not carry it out, and I did not support it. Neither did God.

Sticking your head in the sand is typical, but considering how well this was going I didn't expect you to deflect the conversation to OldshitTube after I prove 270million dead by the hands of christians. To say that these atrocities didn't involve you is asinine considering you are preaching the teachings of the deity that the these people were preaching at the time of said atrocities, making you an ironically guilty scapegoat for your cop-out lord.

[Consilius]

Neither did God.

The OT is FULL of passages where your evil god either murders or commands his followers to murder thousands.

I was referring to the Crusades. They were carried out under their own unique circumstances by different people. God did not order them neither did he congratulate them.

I never knew a single one of the people who did these things. Don't pin me down to their actions, and I will not blame you for Dawkins' advice to ignite religious persecution:

Ridiculing your stupid beliefs is not the same as persecution.

Stop playing the victim card here. It will get you nowhere.
[/quote]

[Zen Badger]

The OT is FULL of passages where your evil god either murders or commands his followers to murder thousands.

I was referring to the Crusades. They were carried out under their own unique circumstances by different people. God did not order them neither did he congratulate them.

I never knew a single one of the people who did these things. Don't pin me down to their actions, and I will not blame you for Dawkins' advice to ignite religious persecution:

Ridiculing your stupid beliefs is not the same as persecution.

Stop playing the victim card here. It will get you nowhere.

[/quote]

I'm quite aware of what you were referring to.

That doesn't detract from your own damn book portraying god as a bloodthirsty, genocidal maniac.

[Consilius]

If God was responsible for everyone's sense of morality, as I allegedly claimed, not only would humanity be an ant farm under mind control, but we would be exempt from all penalties desribed in law, and in the law of God himself.

That is where we differ in opinion. I feel that if there was a god, then he would be responsible for EVERYTHING through authorship of creation. Is this not accepted in your church? If your god was a responsible deity then I believe that it's only reasonable he should be held accountable for the moral destruction carried out in his name, furthermore I happen to believe that applying the fault to humanity alone is obscene, the sad fact is millions and millions of people were brutally killed by christians doing gods will.


You claim god gives us free will so we can decide whether to follow the rules and have eternal bliss, however if you do not know about god you get a free pass...

So bad Christians and bad 'savages' are the same. They both are denied God when they live sinful lives of unrepentance. They both go to Purgatory (I am a Catholic) if they didn't know what they were doing was wrong and strove to do good, which would be better than having done wrong while knowing it was wrong. And if they both follow their nearly identical moral codes to fullness, they both live for eternity with God.

so, why do those that do not have the means to know god have free will?

I did not suggest it, I did not carry it out, and I did not support it. Neither did God.

Sticking your head in the sand is typical, but considering how well this was going I didn't expect you to deflect the conversation to OldshitTube after I prove 270million dead by the hands of christians. To say that these atrocities didn't involve you is asinine considering you are preaching the teachings of the deity that the these people were preaching at the time of said atrocities, making you an ironically guilty scapegoat for your cop-out lord.

God is responsible for allowing bad things to happen to good people. Hence, the question of evil. Why should it be his fault if a cognitive being misinterpreted or bent to his own purpose words that were meant to enforce something good? You are still suggesting "God made me do it."
There should be quotes around "God's will". These people believed what they were doing was right because they were so used to their religion, they forgot to go back over its rudiments. For the thing with Cortez, this was a political conquest, not a Crusade. The missionaries came to evangelize the people after the Spanish had forced them down.

Most of the morals God enforces can be found in non-Christian societies. We EVOLVED with these morals. Ergo, these people were still bound to follow their morals, which just so happened to be God's morals as well.

The Christians of the Crusades and the Holocaust had the same Bible we do. The teachings therein were either misinterpreted or bent to suit a purpose.
Crusades: First of all, the Pope's primary intention was to keep the surplus of knights in Europe from ravaging the countryside by giving them something to do. The Muslims conquering Jerusalem was a good opportunity. He decided to save the 'Holy City' (which was practically the holiest place on earth) from 'heathens' under the banner of evangelizing them while they are there. You can see that this was a person in power using the military to conquer a city. Secular. The Pope factored in religion to give the knights a motive. But it remains that the Muslims won the city from whoever was in power in Palestine fair and square, and the conquest of Jerusalem went to the Europeans, not the Jews (who were also 'heathens') who had it in the first place.
It remains that Jesus evangelized without launching wars, and you shouldn't take other people's cities just because they are significant to your culture. Jesus left Jerusalem to be a city of Jews owned by polytheistic Romans, so obviously it didn't matter that much to him.
Holocaust: This one really isn't that hard to arrive at. Even Martin Luther got it wrong, with his antisemitic book "On the Jews and their Lies". The Jews even yelled that the punishment for Jesus' death should be on them and their children (Matthew 7:25). The Jews didn't do anything to anyone else's kids, and their descendants didn't deserve what they got.
But Jesus, after his resurrection, didn't announce plans for getting back at the Jews nor did he leave instructions for doing so. So the whole Holocaust thing is reduced to racism backed by religion, because when you bring religion into it, people have been proven to do anything without actually thinking about what their religion prescribes.
There are many more examples. These were just two.

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Maybe I went over my head and should have been more respectful.

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I was referring to the Crusades. They were carried out under their own unique circumstances by different people. God did not order them neither did he congratulate them.

Ridiculing your stupid beliefs is not the same as persecution.

Stop playing the victim card here. It will get you nowhere.

I'm quite aware of what you were referring to.

That doesn't detract from your own damn book portraying god as a bloodthirsty, genocidal maniac.
[/quote]
You are making generalizations. Now you are just reciting a condemnation based off what you've heard and selective and literalist Bible readings. Correct me if I'm wrong.
If you have a specific instance you would like to put forth, then you may do so. I've already talked about much of the traditional condemnation of the Tenth Plague in conversations with cato and Ryantology.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Consilus the lion's share of the percentage of people that have lived on this planet had no idea your god exsisted. Their only sin is where and when your god decided to put them on this planet. If they are burning in the lake of fire it is god's fault and you should admit there is a responsibility there. I seem to remember being told that they are offered a chance at redemption at the pearly gates, or is that just another lie I was told wherein god is absolved of his own sins toward us?

You are preaching against "no salvation outside the church", which many Christians believe does not exist.

The RCC believed Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus until Vatican II. Before inclusivism was adopted, if you weren't a Catholic, you were in hell.

[NoraBrimstone]

Bloody hell, this thread should be retitled "Four questions for Christians to avoid answering."

[Zen Badger]

You are making generalizations. Now you are just reciting a condemnation based off what you've heard and selective and literalist Bible readings. Correct me if I'm wrong.
If you have a specific instance you would like to put forth, then you may do so. I've already talked about much of the traditional condemnation of the Tenth Plague in conversations with cato and Ryantology.

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

And for no good reason that I can discern.

Exodus15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

God likes war, no surprise there really.

Exodus32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Even more murder.....

I can provide plenty more examples like these, but I think the point is made.