Attn: Theists - What would it take to prove you wrong?

[Locke]

This is now a consensus among scholars.

No it isn't. If it's a consensus, then why is it still hotly debated?

So let's say that some of these scholars are correct in saying that the NT was being written 15 years after the death of Jesus. So what? How does that prove anything? What exactly are you trying to prove anyway? The only thing you should concern yourself with is giving evidence for your God, then maybe we can hear more about this Jesus fellow.

[Bad Writer]

I also find your faith in unproven assertions hilarious. I'm glad you agree.

---

Lets further this by looking at how you believe in the story of Noah, yet this book of Genesis was written perhaps some 1500 years afterwards, if not more. It's evident that time elapsed between the event and the time it was written does not matter to you, so why bring it up as if it makes the story of Jesus any more valid?

[Locke]

I'm sorry, that was a rude response and completely inappropriate. I was just being prideful, so I apologize

Here:

Hebrews 11:1, 6, 17-19
" Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see... And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him... By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death."

Mark 12:30
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

Jeremiah 29:13
"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

Malachi 3:10
"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, 'and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.'"

God expects us to reason through things and look for evidence if we really want to find Him. It is by this evidence that we can have confidence in what the Bible teaches, and therefore place hope in it. He has provided extensive evidence outside of the Bible to prove its validity. He challenges us to put His promises to the test, such as the one there in Jeremiah 29, and he rewards those who do so and decide to earnestly seek Him. I'd can't deny that it's true - when I finally gave it a shot He rewarded the mess out of me.
He gave us minds; He expects us to use them.

Galatians 6:7
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows"

If you really expect it to work, you will have to be sincere. Otherwise, God will ignore you:

Romans 1:18-25
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."

This Scripture I feel pertains to these forums:

Acts 17:10-11
"As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Acts 17:16-28
"While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

Make your own decision

---

I also find your faith in unproven assertions hilarious. I'm glad you agree.

---

Lets further this by looking at how you believe in the story of Noah, yet this book of Genesis was written perhaps some 1500 years afterwards, if not more. It's evident that time elapsed between the event and the time it was written does not matter to you, so why bring it up as if it makes the story of Jesus any more valid?

There is much to be found by delving into evidence for the Old Testament, especially since 1947.

However, I will not advocate claims of pseudo-Christians about ridiculous assumptions they have made about what the Bible says; in every case, it is they who are wrong, not the Scriptures. Either their pastor led them astray, or they are victims of wishful thinking, but rarely do they study what the Bible itself says. As you are probably aware, most people who claim to be Christian haven't even read the whole Bible.

EDIT: In fact, most of them have hardly read any of it

---

In the opening words of the article at Wikipedia, "Ronald Eldon Wyatt (1933-1999) was an amateur archaeologist (he had no training in the discipline and held no professional position) and author who claimed to have discovered many significant biblical sites and artifacts. His claims are dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars and most Christian leaders even in his own Seventh Day Adventist denomination, but he continues to be quoted (especially on the Internet)."

Many Christians carelessly forward bogus articles from the internet, mistakenly believing they will help unbelievers come to faith. But when Christians are not discriminating, they may end up causing more harm than good!

http://douglasjacoby.com/articles/5741-

[Bad Writer]

I'm not going to read your novel above. If you have something to say, then say it already. Don't quote scripture at me as if it's some authority. You haven't proven god to be real yet, so we have no reason to think these words in any way come from him/her/it.

---

FYI, I have indeed read the Bible from cover-to-cover. It was boring, bloody, and downright laughable. Now tell me something I haven't already heard.

[Locke]

I'm not going to read your novel above. If you have something to say, then say. Don't quote scripture at me as if it's some authority. You haven't proven god to be real yet, so we have no reason to think these words in any way come from him/her/it.

---

FYI, I have indeed read the Bible from cover-to-cover. It was boring, bloody, and downright laughable. Now tell me something I haven't already heard.

I'd rather not waste my time. If you care to know, read up.

Have a good night.

[Bad Writer]

You've already wasted your time. I'm suggesting something productive, but something tells me you won't bite.

[Captain Colostomy]

I'm not going to read your novel above. If you have something to say, then say. Don't quote scripture at me as if it's some authority. You haven't proven god to be real yet, so we have no reason to think these words in any way come from him/her/it.

---

FYI, I have indeed read the Bible from cover-to-cover. It was boring, bloody, and downright laughable. Now tell me something I haven't already heard.

I'd rather not waste my time. If you care to know, read up.

Have a good night.

Translation: I only have the babble to use as evidence. Why u no beleaf?

Locke...wtf, dude? Consensus. Really?

[Bad Writer]

He still wouldn't know what consensus means even if an Inigo Mintoya Meme told him he was using the word wrongly.

[Insert Montoya Meme here]

[Captain Colostomy]

If I recall right, he said earlier he saw no proof to contradict his beliefs. (Paraphrased heavily). I think I see why...he's seemingly utilizing only apologist data to inform himself. I'm not one to chase down details, but I don't recall seeing his 'timeline' claims on when the bible was written anywhere else. Ever. The debate is always for later on. Jumping on to quotations as evidence like he did was weak.

When in doubt, let 'god's words' be the final say.

Dick move.

Oh well.

[max-greece]

Good debate. Thoroughly enjoyable read.

Just a thought on the morality issue.

Atheism is amoral has been stated several times on this thread. Actually this is something I agree with - in the same sense that mathematics is amoral, or a person's height is a gauge to the morality of their behaviour and so on.

This does not mean, however, that atheists can be moral "despite" being atheist. The word despite is wrong. People can be moral whether or not they are atheist would be a better description just as they can be moral whether they are short or tall.

So if atheism does not confer morality - what does? Does religion?

I am yet to see any study that shows that theists are more moral than eithers atheists or theists following different pathways.

I do not see that there are any immoral acts that an atheist would perform that a theist would not. On the other hand there are many immoral acts that religious people do/have done throughout history that an atheist would not do. Suicide bombing is a good example, as is circumcision (particularly female), buring of witches, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition......

In summary then - the case for religion confering morality looks very weak indeed.

Religion does generally document a version of morality - varying slightly between religions. As these come from our quite distant past they do not appear to offer much of a guide in today's reality. The 10 commandments is notable for quite how badly it fairs. Rape and child-molesting are not even mentioned whilst covetting is - and I cannot imagine that makes anyone's top ten these days.

One must conclude, therefore that morality is not related to belief except where such belief might corrupt morality.

So where does it come from?

My supposition is that it is an innate part of the human condition brought to us through evolution and natural selection. Those that cooperated, worked together and respected one another, survived.