Encouragement and Advice

[themonkeyman]

Hi Folks,

So as most of you know I have been called 'Agnostic Theist' whatever the heck that means I dont know lol.

Anyway - I had a friend round to my house tonight and he started arguing with me about christianity and how it is right.

Can someone please refute them. I know that there is no evidence to prove god or gods exist but I am afraid of hell and I am also finding it difficult to stop believing.

Any tips or things to do to keep my mind off it.

Here are the arguments and questions can someone please pick at them.

1) Do babies and children go to hell?
No because children are not old enough to understand and make their own decisions to be accountable.

2) Is the New Testament reliable?
Yes because the Old Testament points directly to Jesus and the New Testament.

3) If God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent he created hell, so therefore how can hell be separation from God if he is everywhere?
Hell is separation from God as God chooses not to be in hell with others.

4) Why did God create hell for eternal torment and torture?
God never mentioned hell as eternal torment and torture – Well not really, many people think dying and having nothing when they die is Torture much like the same way being without God will be torture. God does not tell us a lot about hell.

5) Jesus took the punishment for all our sins – So based upon that to pay our debt should he not be in hell for eternity considering he died a sinner?
No Jesus did not die a sinner at all Jesus was sinless but took the burden of other peoples sin creating a paradox that he could not stay in hell because he himself was a sinner however he could get there because of the sins.

6) As we know the Bible has been edited and re-written many times, do you think God would punish people for not believing when those same people want to believe but cannot because they cannot trust the Bible?
Yes because they should trust the bible irrespective – It’s God’s word and is never wrong.

7) Why would God punish us for eternity in hell for a Finite sin?
It’s not that he wants to punish us, It’s because it’s basically the final straw – God did all he could during our earthly lives after which we will be removed from his presence.

8) Did God create evil?
No God created rules in which he deemed were against what his will was, People going against Gods will are evil.

9) Why did God Punish Job?
Because Job was to act as an example for future generations.

10) Why when I started breaking away from God and asked for him to Guide me one last chance did he ignore me?
It’s because for years you have been walking further and further away and you don’t know which way to turn this is of your own making.

11) If an Ancient Tribe has not heard about God where do they go?
They will go to heaven because they have now knowledge.

12) So what you’re saying is that Christianity should not be preached as people who are ignorant can go to heaven yet those who hear Gods word and reject it will go to heaven?
Yes this is correct, it is because in their heart and mind and soul they will seek God.

13) Would it not have been better not to have been born?
No because God gave us free will we then decided to go against it!

14) I don’t like or trust the Apostle Paul, He contradicted a lot of what Jesus and the OT said, Prove it (I got stuck here).
15) When God says ‘I AM’ he is meaning ‘Mind your own business’?
No God is saying that is name is the unspeakable name that the taught to Moses.

16) Do you believe in the Book of Revelation?
I don’t know.

17) Do you believe it is in some way scriptural and literal?
I don’t know.

18) If someone decides not to believe in God throughout this life – Although God said he would cast people into the lake of fire for eternity, Do you think at the end he will save everyone?
No because God cannot show his Justice to these people if he saves them anyway?

19) What if people in heaven pray to God to forgive them or to take pity, Surely Jesus said anything they ask for he will give them?
Yes but this does not show Gods love if he allows them forgiveness as he has to be a fair and Just God.

20) What is heaven like?
We worship and praise God forever!

[Minimalist]

Yes because the Old Testament points directly to Jesus and the New Testament.

Well, I puked on #2. Your pal doesn't know shit about either one apparently.

He needs to talk to a rabbi. They are full of shit, too. But at least they can give the Jewish account of these silly stories.

[Captain Colostomy]

Yes because the Old Testament points directly to Jesus and the New Testament.

Well, I puked on #2. Your pal doesn't know shit about either one apparently.

He needs to talk to a rabbi. They are full of shit, too. But at least they can give the Jewish account of these silly stories.

My thoughts exactly when I read this. The gospels really tried their damndest to fit the Jesus myth into the the OT prophecies. (Matthew especially?) Not many Jews were/are convinced...shouldn't the torchbearers of the OT have a say in what their pious drivel meant?

Christians. Oy freaking vey.

[FallentoReason]

Hi Folks,

So as most of you know I have been called 'Agnostic Theist' whatever the heck that means I dont know lol.

It means you don't know for sure if God exists (agnostic) and you believe in God (theist).

1) Do babies and children go to hell?
No because children are not old enough to understand and make their own decisions to be accountable.

I've always wondered about the implications of this... because if that's the case, then why don't we kill *all* babies so that those souls are *guaranteed* to go to heaven? Why put them through the test of life where God's existence is on shaky ground? Eternal bliss is at risk.

2) Is the New Testament reliable?
Yes because the Old Testament points directly to Jesus and the New Testament.

It's reliability or lack of is independent of whether it's expressing a truth about reality. All that can be said is that it's *necessary* for it to be reliable (as that would be expected of something Divinely inspired) but it's not a *sufficient* reason to believe it really is Divinely inspired. More needs to be taken into account than that, therefore I wouldn't worry too much about this point.

3) If God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent [then] he created hell

Non-sequitur... but go on...

, so therefore how can hell be separation from God if he is everywhere?
Hell is separation from God as God chooses not to be in hell with others.

God doesn't get a choice of not being in hell *if* he's omnipresent; he can't withdraw his presence from *anywhere* without losing the attribute of being omnipresent. Funnily enough, that's another thing to add to the list of things God can't do (meaning he's not omnipotent either).

4) Why did God create hell for eternal torment and torture?
God never mentioned hell as eternal torment and torture – Well not really, many people think dying and having nothing when they die is Torture much like the same way being without God will be torture. God does not tell us a lot about hell.

This isn't even answering the question.

5) Jesus took the punishment for all our sins – So based upon that to pay our debt should he not be in hell for eternity considering he died a sinner?
No Jesus did not die a sinner at all Jesus was sinless but took the burden of other peoples sin creating a paradox that he could not stay in hell because he himself was a sinner however he could get there because of the sins.

The paradox is that as it stands, there's nothing to accept on our behalf; no sacrifice/justice/grace since Jesus didn't give up *anything* for good. A lamb sacrificed more than Jesus ever did - it died and *stayed* dead. Gone. Never to be seen again. Back to the soil where it came from.

6) As we know the Bible has been edited and re-written many times, do you think God would punish people for not believing when those same people want to believe but cannot because they cannot trust the Bible?
Yes because they should trust the bible irrespective – It’s God’s word and is never wrong.

That answer begs the question.

7) Why would God punish us for eternity in hell for a Finite sin?
It’s not that he wants to punish us, It’s because it’s basically the final straw – God did all he could during our earthly lives after which we will be removed from his presence.

He didn't do all he could. He's omniscient meaning that he knew the outcome of his own choices. This means that whatever his will was, he would know *exactly* how to act so that it would be accomplished. This is the basis for the problem of non-belief: if God essentially wants us to be in relationship with him, then why doesn't he show himself like he openly showed himself to Adam and Eve, to Lucifer and his angels? The fact that he doesn't and consequently billions upon billions of souls die living a lie (e.g. Hinduism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Sihkism etc) for something that was out of their control strongly suggests that God doesn't exist, or he's actually evil.

8) Did God create evil?
No God created rules in which he deemed were against what his will was, People going against Gods will are evil.

I'd have to agree with this. From reading the Tao Te Ching, I've come to realise that one thing can't exist without its opposite. This means that whatever rules God set in place would mean that the inverse of those rules would be evil. It's an inescapable fact of nature.

9) Why did God Punish Job?
Because Job was to act as an example for future generations.

I haven't looked at Job in over a year, so I don't have anything to say here.

10) Why when I started breaking away from God and asked for him to Guide me one last chance did he ignore me?
It’s because for years you have been walking further and further away and you don’t know which way to turn this is of your own making.

Classic. Absolutely *everything* is of our own making, even the character of God in the Bible.

This is another example of God's unwillingness to act in order to achieve his will.

11) If an Ancient Tribe has not heard about God where do they go?
They will go to heaven because they have now knowledge.

If this is the case, then Christianity is self-defeating. What's the point of a Jewish apocalyptic prophet claiming to be God and leaving dubious evidence for people to go on (if they eventually accept it) when outright ignorant people get a free pass to heaven? Why create such an unnecessary stir in the first place when all that's going to do is possibly turn people *away* from the truth? Paradox is the name of the game.

12) So what you’re saying is that Christianity should not be preached as people who are ignorant can go to heaven yet those who hear Gods word and reject it will go to heaven?
Yes this is correct, it is because in their heart and mind and soul they will seek God.

Wrong. There's a very famous instance of a missionary who went to convert a tribe but ended up deconverting himself. This is because the tribe had no belief in a creator whatsoever. Either way, the answer is wishful thinking at most, since every other culture comes up with ideas about God that are contradictory to that of Christianity. This is in fact no different to simply being ignorant and getting a free pass to heaven. It's a non-answer.

13) Would it not have been better not to have been born?
No because God gave us free will we then decided to go against it!

What?! This is *precisely* why it would have been better to not be born.

14) I don’t like or trust the Apostle Paul, He contradicted a lot of what Jesus and the OT said, Prove it (I got stuck here).

Paul doesn't even know Jesus' mums bloody name! Not once does he mention Mary. But when it comes to contradictions, off the top of my head I can think of one instance which is a little suss:

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

It's as if Paul isn't aware that Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount where he taught everyone the Lord's prayer.

15) When God says ‘I AM’ he is meaning ‘Mind your own business’?
No God is saying that is name is the unspeakable name that the taught to Moses.

?

16) Do you believe in the Book of Revelation?
I don’t know.

...

17) Do you believe it is in some way scriptural and literal?
I don’t know.

...

18) If someone decides not to believe in God throughout this life – Although God said he would cast people into the lake of fire for eternity, Do you think at the end he will save everyone?
No because God cannot show his Justice to these people if he saves them anyway?

Justice isn't being served if the person being casted to hell didn't have the slightest clue that their theology was completely wrong/didn't even know about Christianity.

19) What if people in heaven pray to God to forgive them or to take pity, Surely Jesus said anything they ask for he will give them?
Yes but this does not show Gods love if he allows them forgiveness as he has to be a fair and Just God.

This life *isn't* fair though. God is directly to blame for that since he knew some people would never come across Christianity, or those that did might not find it plausible enough.

20) What is heaven like?
We worship and praise God forever!

You mean praise the Designer of the Faulty Divine Plan for eternity? Sounds like hell!

[pineapplebunnybounce]

My knowledge of the bible sucks after so many years of being godless, but I'll tackle the ones I can because I just finished a 40 page report and am in a good mood.

1) Do babies and children go to hell?
No because children are not old enough to understand and make their own decisions to be accountable.

Ask him if the mentally challenged go to hell for not believing.

2) Is the New Testament reliable?
Yes because the Old Testament points directly to Jesus and the New Testament.

I think New was written to fit Old and fulfill all the prophecies.

3) If God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent he created hell, so therefore how can hell be separation from God if he is everywhere?
Hell is separation from God as God chooses not to be in hell with others.

Then he isn't omnipresent.

4) Why did God create hell for eternal torment and torture?
God never mentioned hell as eternal torment and torture – Well not really, many people think dying and having nothing when they die is Torture much like the same way being without God will be torture. God does not tell us a lot about hell.

Jesus mentioned hellfire. It's not nothing, from memory, at least fire is involved.

5) Jesus took the punishment for all our sins – So based upon that to pay our debt should he not be in hell for eternity considering he died a sinner?
No Jesus did not die a sinner at all Jesus was sinless but took the burden of other peoples sin creating a paradox that he could not stay in hell because he himself was a sinner however he could get there because of the sins.

Religious acrobatics. The entire thing didn't happen, if it makes you feel any better.

6) As we know the Bible has been edited and re-written many times, do you think God would punish people for not believing when those same people want to believe but cannot because they cannot trust the Bible?
Yes because they should trust the bible irrespective – It’s God’s word and is never wrong.

If it's never wrong why was it edited and rewritten? I mean come on, how many rewrites do you get for an assignment? None, lol. God can't get it right the first time?

7) Why would God punish us for eternity in hell for a Finite sin?
It’s not that he wants to punish us, It’s because it’s basically the final straw – God did all he could during our earthly lives after which we will be removed from his presence.

He doesn't want to punish us, but he does? I thought he was omnipotent. Why did he create rules that worked against his own desires? No wonder he doesn't exist, he contradicts himself too much.

8) Did God create evil?
No God created rules in which he deemed were against what his will was, People going against Gods will are evil.

Yes, things are against god's will and you call it evil. But who created those things? Hm? God.

9) Why did God Punish Job?
Because Job was to act as an example for future generations.

To show everyone how sadistic he is.

10) Why when I started breaking away from God and asked for him to Guide me one last chance did he ignore me?
It’s because for years you have been walking further and further away and you don’t know which way to turn this is of your own making.

The bible says jesus treasures the lost sheep more than the loyal ones. He didn't reply your prayers because he doesn't exist.

11) If an Ancient Tribe has not heard about God where do they go?
They will go to heaven because they have now knowledge.

THEN FUCKING STOP PREACHING!

12) So what you’re saying is that Christianity should not be preached as people who are ignorant can go to heaven yet those who hear Gods word and reject it will go to heaven?
Yes this is correct, it is because in their heart and mind and soul they will seek God.

LOL, your friend got half of this right, the best strategy is to stop preaching. But ask him why did jesus say to spread the word.

13) Would it not have been better not to have been born?
No because God gave us free will we then decided to go against it!

What? I don't even know how the answer is related to the question.

14) I don’t like or trust the Apostle Paul, He contradicted a lot of what Jesus and the OT said, Prove it (I got stuck here).
15) When God says ‘I AM’ he is meaning ‘Mind your own business’?
No God is saying that is name is the unspeakable name that the taught to Moses.

Can't help you with this one, sounds gibberish to me.

16) Do you believe in the Book of Revelation?
I don’t know.

Well why not? I thought at an earlier question your friend said people shouldn't doubt the bible.

17) Do you believe it is in some way scriptural and literal?
I don’t know.

Weak. Push for an answer.

18) If someone decides not to believe in God throughout this life – Although God said he would cast people into the lake of fire for eternity, Do you think at the end he will save everyone?
No because God cannot show his Justice to these people if he saves them anyway?

Oooh so he believes in the part of revelation that doesn't want him dead, but wants others dead.

well god wasn't very big on justice when he let jesus died. that wasn't just. punishing an innocent for someone else's "sins" isn't just.

19) What if people in heaven pray to God to forgive them or to take pity, Surely Jesus said anything they ask for he will give them?
Yes but this does not show Gods love if he allows them forgiveness as he has to be a fair and Just God.

Your friend is giving the vibe of really delighting in the idea of others roasting in hell.

20) What is heaven like?
We worship and praise God forever!

Sounds like hell.

---

btw, themonkeyman, the fear of hell is really messing with you, huh? I remember thinking I really wish I was never born when I was deconverting. Hang in there, my advice is to keep as busy as possible and don't think about it. A year later you'll look back and see how absurd the entire idea is. Religion only works with constant reinforcement, if you live without it for a long period of time, it won't make sense to you when you come back to it.

[Tonus]

Anyway - I had a friend round to my house tonight and he started arguing with me about christianity and how it is right.

Ahhhh, tolerance. Can you smell its sweet fragrance?

Yeah, me either. Your friend sounds like a bit of a douche, sorry.

Can someone please refute them. I know that there is no evidence to prove god or gods exist but I am afraid of hell and I am also finding it difficult to stop believing.

Don't be in a hurry to make a decision. Take your time and read up on those arguments and consider them without being in a rush. Look, it is clear that you had very strong and closely-held beliefs and do not seem to have had a reason to give them up on a whim. So the weakening of your faith is something you must take into account. No doubt your religious family members and acquaintances feel that the best approach is to smother you and harass you until you give in. Does that make their belief system seem more correct, or less?

Don't seek the quick and easy answers, they may not satisfy you and will simply make you more confused. You cannot acquire knowledge by swallowing a book; you have to seek out information and think about it and work things out in your mind. It's not a process that you will complete in an hour or a day; some deconverts struggle for much longer than that. I think that the harder you try to get a quick resolution to your concerns, the longer it will take to find whatever it is you seek.

[Minimalist]

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_...rvant.html

While the original Hebrew text clearly refers to the Jewish people as the “Suffering Servant,” over the centuries Isaiah 53 has become a cornerstone of the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah. Unfortunately, this claim is based on widespread mistranslations and distortion of context.

Like I said, the jews are full of shit, too. But it IS their book and so their shit should count for a little more than xtian stupidity.

So how did the Suffering Servant come to be associated with Jesus? After his death, the promoters of Christianity retroactively looked into the Bible and “applied” – through mistranslation and distortion of context – these biblical verses as referring to Jesus.

Missionary apologist Walter Riggans candidly admitted:

“There is no self-evident blueprint in the Hebrew Bible which can be said to unambiguously point to Jesus. Only after one has come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and more specifically the kind of Messiah that he is, does it all begin to make sense...”

[Godscreated]

Hi Folks,

So as most of you know I have been called 'Agnostic Theist' whatever the heck that means I dont know lol.

Anyway - I had a friend round to my house tonight and he started arguing with me about christianity and how it is right.

Can someone please refute them. I know that there is no evidence to prove god or gods exist but I am afraid of hell and I am also finding it difficult to stop believing.

Any tips or things to do to keep my mind off it.

Here are the arguments and questions can someone please pick at them.

1) Do babies and children go to hell?
No because children are not old enough to understand and make their own decisions to be accountable.

Good all around answer.

2) Is the New Testament reliable?
Yes because the Old Testament points directly to Jesus and the New Testament.

This is one answer that's true, there are others.

3) If God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent he created hell, so therefore how can hell be separation from God if he is everywhere?
Hell is separation from God as God chooses not to be in hell with others.

He chooses not to be there, it's a place of punishment.

4) Why did God create hell for eternal torment and torture?
God never mentioned hell as eternal torment and torture – Well not really, many people think dying and having nothing when they die is Torture much like the same way being without God will be torture. God does not tell us a lot about hell.

Well I'm not sure what to make of the answer you were given. Hell is not a place of torture, it is never called torture in scripture. Jesus spoke more on hell than He did on heaven, so He must have been trying to warn us the place is real and a terrifying place to spend eternity.

5) Jesus took the punishment for all our sins – So based upon that to pay our debt should he not be in hell for eternity considering he died a sinner?
No Jesus did not die a sinner at all Jesus was sinless but took the burden of other peoples sin creating a paradox that he could not stay in hell because he himself was a sinner however he could get there because of the sins.

Nothing wrong with the answer.

6) As we know the Bible has been edited and re-written many times, do you think God would punish people for not believing when those same people want to believe but cannot because they cannot trust the Bible?
Yes because they should trust the bible irrespective – It’s God’s word and is never wrong.

The oldest copy of the Book of Jeremiah is dated around 300 BC, this copy was found as part of the dead Sea Scrolls. It matches word for word with later copies and is a near perfect match with today's Bibles. The Bible is highly reliable and rejecting it is no excuse.

7) Why would God punish us for eternity in hell for a Finite sin?
It’s not that he wants to punish us, It’s because it’s basically the final straw – God did all he could during our earthly lives after which we will be removed from his presence.

I'll address the finite sin part, all sin is against God, God being an eternal being means the sins are eternal unless forgiven, so unforgiven sin brings an eternal punishment.

8) Did God create evil?
No God created rules in which he deemed were against what his will was, People going against Gods will are evil.

Agreed

9) Why did God Punish Job?
Because Job was to act as an example for future generations.

10) Why when I started breaking away from God and asked for him to Guide me one last chance did he ignore me?
It’s because for years you have been walking further and further away and you don’t know which way to turn this is of your own making.

God did not ignore you, He would never do that, it could be that you had moved far enough away from Him you did not recognize His help. Were you really sincere in your asking, this is a question you need to answer.

11) If an Ancient Tribe has not heard about God where do they go?
They will go to heaven because they have now knowledge.

This is not true if I understand the answer. They will be judged by a standard God has set for those in this type of situation.

12) So what you’re saying is that Christianity should not be preached as people who are ignorant can go to heaven yet those who hear Gods word and reject it will go to heaven?
Yes this is correct, it is because in their heart and mind and soul they will seek God.

Disagree, many of the people who do not hear the message of Christ will not go to heaven, like I said above they will be judged, which means they could go to heaven or hell. If they had heard the message there's no reason to believe they all would have accepted Christ.

13) Would it not have been better not to have been born?
No because God gave us free will we then decided to go against it!

I'm not sure going against free will is possible, there are people who God said it would have been better if you had not been born, they are going to hell. If one is to accept Christ it would have been terrible not to be born.

14) I don’t like or trust the Apostle Paul, He contradicted a lot of what Jesus and the OT said, Prove it (I got stuck here).

I do not know of anything Paul said that's contradictory to Christ. I would have to say he did not and would need to see proof.

15) When God says ‘I AM’ he is meaning ‘Mind your own business’?
No God is saying that is name is the unspeakable name that the taught to Moses.

I asked God what He meant by I AM when He spoke to Moses, I asked daily for months and never heard a word, so I forgot about it. One day many months later I got an answer, an answer for me, God said I AM the Truth. Now that's an answer that covers a lot of ground which I'm still exploring and will till I die.

16) Do you believe in the Book of Revelation?
I don’t know.

Yes, why shouldn't a Christian believe any part of scripture.

17) Do you believe it is in some way scriptural and literal?
I don’t know.

If you're speaking of Revelation, it's prophecy that has literal meaning, agreed it's not easy to understand and you need to tie Daniel in with Revelation.

18) If someone decides not to believe in God throughout this life – Although God said he would cast people into the lake of fire for eternity, Do you think at the end he will save everyone?
No because God cannot show his Justice to these people if he saves them anyway?

Good answer.

19) What if people in heaven pray to God to forgive them or to take pity, Surely Jesus said anything they ask for he will give them?
Yes but this does not show Gods love if he allows them forgiveness as he has to be a fair and Just God.

I'm not sure why anyone in heaven would need to pray, they would have direct contact with Him. God will not give anything outside His will and I believe that's outside His will.

20) What is heaven like?
We worship and praise God forever!

Yes that's part of it and a great part, but there will be much more, one is not receiving a mansion not to live in. God will have plenty for us to be responsible for.[/quote]

[Minimalist]

As you see, we have our own resident delusional fuckwit, too.

[Captain Colostomy]

Hey monkeyman-

A thought occurs to me. Why bother stressing refuting another when you admit you yourself fear a hell realm and also still have belief? You should stop. Until you are confident in your convictions, I suggest not debating anyone. Hell, never debate anyone for that matter. I realize your friend has what he believes to be your best interests at heart, but he isn't giving you an unbiased view...and looking for counter arguments won't necessarily help the situation...especially if you just regurgitate them. I think your friends questions(coupled with Godschild's responses) gives you a decent um...'pro' framework to compare with the rests of the folks here 'con'. Without too much rash decisions, sit back, research, and reflect on the cases presented. What makes sense? What feels right? Etc. Etc. The only person who can come to this conclusion is you. Unforced. Being true to yourself means more than just being(or even being) right. At least you'll sleep sounder.

Just so you know...hell is a powerful concept, no doubt. It was my main foil to sloughing off Christianity for years. But once I saw the holes in history and doctrine for what they are, hell became like any other urban legend...a myth so fervently believed by the gullible that it takes on a life of it's own. My advice? Ignore it. Fear is a shitty reason to stick with a religion.