Bad Christian advice for dating, marriage, etc

[RichardP]

I'll start by discussing "relationship" advice that I think is bad.

When I was first starting out in college the Christians were pushing "Group dating" rather than dating one-on-one.

Well it is not easy to set up a group date. Especially if you don't know the girl that well. It is bad enough to have to call up the girl that you're interested in and ask her out, let alone having to call up other single friends and to try and set up a "group date".

And as I discovered -- on the first, and last, group date that I ever went on -- you need to establish who is with who ahead of time! I mean you're on the group date and the girl that you are interested is showing interest in you and talking to you, when suddenly another guy starts competing with you for her attention...


And I noticed that Christian groups were sort of class societies and there were certain guys who were allowed to just date one-on-one. Like the student leader of the church college group. At the end of the school year he announced that he was engaged and introduced his fiance to the group.

I said something to my friend like "I didn't even know that he had a girlfriend."

And he told me "Yeah he like to keep his personal life private."

"So he was just going on regular dates with her?"

And my friend looks at me like I'm an idiot, "Yes! He's a more mature Christian."

----------------------------------

Then the Christians came up with the brilliant idea of "Courting" instead of dating.

Instead of asking the girl out on a date you tell her that you would like to "court" her. Both your parents and her parents get involved. The "dates" are chaperoned and she is told that breaking off the "courtship" is almost the equivalent of breaking off an engagement.

Wow talk about moving fast and a making things high pressure! I guess you better be extremely careful and choosy about who you court!

----------------------------------

Then there is the bizarre Christian preoccupation with masturbation. Why do they even worry about it? It's like the somehow think that if you don't masturbate then you won't have any sexual thoughts -- and you won't fool around. It always operated exactly the opposite with me. I think that as a guy you need the sexual release.

I wonder about Priests who have to live a celibate life. They are forbidden from having a sexual relationship with women. So what do they do? They molest young boys. I guess that technically they're still not having sex with women!!!

And I have dated ex-Nuns before -- and I can tell that is a mistake! But it is a thrill though. Talk about a sex craved woman! One woman I dated had been out of the convent for a little over a year and I found out that she had about 6 different "boyfriends". One of them got her pregnant and she married him.

-------------------------------

And I always hear Christians giving advice like "You need to be happy and well adjusted all by yourself before you consider dating and marrying. Because the woman won't fill that "void" in your life."

The hell she won't! I have been my happiest and "best adjusted" when I was in a good relationship. Maybe a bad relationship won't fill the "void" but a good relationship sure as hell can! Of course people can argue "Well then why aren't you married to her?" And I have to admit that we were different. Different goals, different ambitions, and.... I financially wasn't ready to get married and support children.. And after a painful breakup she quickly married somebody else and my chances of getting back together with her were gone.

But the experience tells me that a good relationship can definitely fill the "void" -- the need to be with somebody to love and share your life with. And I'm not sure that I really regret the past relationships that did not make it. I have good memories and enjoyed life more at that time because of the relationship. I'd like to think that we both did.

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[RichardP]

And here is hilarious link with advice from the Bible.

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Bad_Bible_Advice

[Drich]

I'll start by discussing "relationship" advice that I think is bad.

When I was first starting out in college the Christians were pushing "Group dating" rather than dating one-on-one.

Well it is not easy to set up a group date. Especially if you don't know the girl that well. It is bad enough to have to call up the girl that you're interested in and ask her out, let alone having to call up other single friends and to try and set up a "group date".

And as I discovered -- on the first, and last, group date that I ever went on -- you need to establish who is with who ahead of time! I mean you're on the group date and the girl that you are interested is showing interest in you and talking to you, when suddenly another guy starts competing with you for her attention...

This is a really bad example of 'group dating.' When I was in that collage age group, i started a singles group in my church which originally consisted of 6 members, and just two years later there were over 70. One of the more successful things we did was Group dating. This was organized all by the group ahead of time where 6 random guys were paired with 6 girls by drawing names from a hat, and the 12 of us would all go to some event or meal and sit with and make the effort to talk to the person he/she was paired with. At the time I started to see the numbers start to dwindle, but then I noticed people dropped out of the group in pairs. They found someone they liked, and started to plan their own events with other couples. Their were 6 marriages and at last count 15 kids born as a result of the 'group dating' at our church. (Including me/mine.)

And I noticed that Christian groups were sort of class societies and there were certain guys who were allowed to just date one-on-one. Like the student leader of the church college group. At the end of the school year he announced that he was engaged and introduced his fiance to the group.

I said something to my friend like "I didn't even know that he had a girlfriend."

And he told me "Yeah he like to keep his personal life private."

"So he was just going on regular dates with her?"

And my friend looks at me like I'm an idiot, "Yes! He's a more mature Christian."

So?

Then the Christians came up with the brilliant idea of "Courting" instead of dating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtship

Courting i something far older than Christianity. In the above link there is evidence that points to ancient Greece and China.

Then there is the bizarre Christian preoccupation with masturbation. Why do they even worry about it?

It not masturbation that is the issue. It is the pornography that accompanies it that destroys one soul.

It's like the somehow think that if you don't masturbate then you won't have any sexual thoughts -- and you won't fool around. It always operated exactly the opposite with me. I think that as a guy you need the sexual release.

Which is why we have one programmed into us to automatically happen if we go too long with out a sexual release.

I wonder about Priests who have to live a celibate life. They are forbidden from having a sexual relationship with women. So what do they do? They molest young boys. I guess that technically they're still not having sex with women!!!

did see that joke coming!

And I have dated ex-Nuns before -- and I can tell that is a mistake! But it is a thrill though. Talk about a sex craved woman! One woman I dated had been out of the convent for a little over a year and I found out that she had about 6 different "boyfriends". One of them got her pregnant and she married him.

That is why Paul tell us it is good to marry, and that no one should forbid marriage.

-------------------------------

And I always hear Christians giving advice like "You need to be happy and well adjusted all by yourself before you consider dating and marrying. Because the woman won't fill that "void" in your life."

This is true. If not your relationship is doomed to fail. Because otherwise what ends up happening is the need person in the relationship end up taking from the other. Depending on who or how the other person is equip to deal in these type of relationships the relationship can go on for a while or it will fail quickly. Because in the end if one person is always taking from the other and does not give back to the other person (Which he/she can not do unless they are well adjusted themselves.)

The hell she won't! I have been my happiest and "best adjusted" when I was in a good relationship. Maybe a bad relationship won't fill the "void" but a good relationship sure as hell can! Of course people can argue "Well then why aren't you married to her?" And I have to admit that we were different. Different goals, different ambitions, and.... I financially wasn't ready to get married and support children.. And after a painful breakup she quickly married somebody else and my chances of getting back together with her were gone.

But the experience tells me that a good relationship can definitely fill the "void" -- the need to be with somebody to love and share your life with. And I'm not sure that I really regret the past relationships that did not make it. I have good memories and enjoyed life more at that time because of the relationship. I'd like to think that we both did.

Finding happiness and 'filling the void' is not the same. That would be like being hungry and then eating. It seems as if you are satisfied after you eat, but sooner or later you will be hungry again. Did you fill the void by eating or did you just fill an immediate need? When one fills the void we all have placed in our hearts, then He/She will never hunger again. This allows that person to be whatever the other person need their partner to be, give the couple a far better chance of overcoming things like Goals, ambitions, money, and even drug and or physical/health issues.

That said i am not saying two messed up people can not find happiness together. I am pointing out these are the exceptions and not the rule.

[Cato]

Any group that finds it necessary to implore the superiority of the 'side hug' to its sexually repressed flock, for fear of arousal, has no business giving any type of relationship advice.

For the uninitiated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZnmTiqEikg

Christians should also stay the fuck away from rap and rock & roll.

[RichardP]

I'll start by discussing "relationship" advice that I think is bad.

When I was first starting out in college the Christians were pushing "Group dating" rather than dating one-on-one.

Well it is not easy to set up a group date. Especially if you don't know the girl that well. It is bad enough to have to call up the girl that you're interested in and ask her out, let alone having to call up other single friends and to try and set up a "group date".

And as I discovered -- on the first, and last, group date that I ever went on -- you need to establish who is with who ahead of time! I mean you're on the group date and the girl that you are interested is showing interest in you and talking to you, when suddenly another guy starts competing with you for her attention...

This is a really bad example of 'group dating.' When I was in that collage age group, i started a singles group in my church which originally consisted of 6 members, and just two years later there were over 70. One of the more successful things we did was Group dating. This was organized all by the group ahead of time where 6 random guys were paired with 6 girls by drawing names from a hat, and the 12 of us would all go to some event or meal and sit with and make the effort to talk to the person he/she was paired with. At the time I started to see the numbers start to dwindle, but then I noticed people dropped out of the group in pairs. They found someone they liked, and started to plan their own events with other couples. Their were 6 marriages and at last count 15 kids born as a result of the 'group dating' at our church. (Including me/mine.)

Your story about the group "dating" in your churches singles group made me remember something. This is going to crack you up. I was in a men's bible study (Campus Crusade for Christ), and the head of the bible study asked the head a women's bible study if they would like to go on a group "date" with us. She said yes and we made plans to go to a movie and get pizza afterwards.

Well, we went to the movie theater -- and some guys even bought tickets -- and we waited outside. But the women's bible study didn't show up. So the head of our bible study tried calling the head of the women's bible study, but she would not answer the phone. We got stood up!! hock: It was almost kind of funny. We were all dressed up waiting together outside the movie theater feeling like a group of idiots. So we left the theater and went to a little miniature golf, amusement park place. We played miniature golf, roared around on those little cars, did the batting cages, and played video games. It actually was kind of fun -- but still a little weird.

And I noticed that Christian groups were sort of class societies and there were certain guys who were allowed to just date one-on-one. Like the student leader of the church college group. At the end of the school year he announced that he was engaged and introduced his fiance to the group.

I said something to my friend like "I didn't even know that he had a girlfriend."

And he told me "Yeah he like to keep his personal life private."

"So he was just going on regular dates with her?"

And my friend looks at me like I'm an idiot, "Yes! He's a more mature Christian."

So?

It just seemed a bit hypocritical for him to stand up in front of the group and preach group "dating" while he did the standard dating himself. People in that group had gotten on my case because I had a "girlfriend" who I was just going on normal dates with. And no, at that time, I was not fooling around with her. They were honestly totally innocent dates.

I was a little annoyed. I was about the same age as him. What made me "less mature" of a Christian? Was it really any of their business? And I did not like that I was being viewed by them as "immature" -- almost like they were my superiors.

Then the Christians came up with the brilliant idea of "Courting" instead of dating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtship

Courting i something far older than Christianity. In the above link there is evidence that points to ancient Greece and China.

Who cares how old it is? Certain ideas are not worth reintroducing.

Then there is the bizarre Christian preoccupation with masturbation. Why do they even worry about it?

It not masturbation that is the issue. It is the pornography that accompanies it that destroys one soul.

You know I never heard any porn connection mentioned in any of the talks about the evils of masturbation.

In one talk the speaker even argued that guys often resort to masturbating in the shower. And he suggested that the way to avoid that was to room with other Christians and always shower with the door open -- to resist the urge to masturbate..

-------------------------------

And I always hear Christians giving advice like "You need to be happy and well adjusted all by yourself before you consider dating and marrying. Because the woman won't fill that "void" in your life."

This is true. If not your relationship is doomed to fail. Because otherwise what ends up happening is the need person in the relationship end up taking from the other. Depending on who or how the other person is equip to deal in these type of relationships the relationship can go on for a while or it will fail quickly. Because in the end if one person is always taking from the other and does not give back to the other person (Which he/she can not do unless they are well adjusted themselves.)

Yeah but that can be true in any friendship. Do you tell that to a new kid at school who hasn't made any friends yet? Pull him aside and explain that the problem is that he is too "needy" and if he were to make friends he would just end up taking from the other kids -- and not giving enough to the friendship? And he needs to learn to be happy, and not lonely, by himself before he goes seeking friends?

The hell she won't! I have been my happiest and "best adjusted" when I was in a good relationship. Maybe a bad relationship won't fill the "void" but a good relationship sure as hell can! Of course people can argue "Well then why aren't you married to her?" And I have to admit that we were different. Different goals, different ambitions, and.... I financially wasn't ready to get married and support children.. And after a painful breakup she quickly married somebody else and my chances of getting back together with her were gone.

But the experience tells me that a good relationship can definitely fill the "void" -- the need to be with somebody to love and share your life with. And I'm not sure that I really regret the past relationships that did not make it. I have good memories and enjoyed life more at that time because of the relationship. I'd like to think that we both did.

Finding happiness and 'filling the void' is not the same. That would be like being hungry and then eating. It seems as if you are satisfied after you eat, but sooner or later you will be hungry again. Did you fill the void by eating or did you just fill an immediate need? When one fills the void we all have placed in our hearts, then He/She will never hunger again. This allows that person to be whatever the other person need their partner to be, give the couple a far better chance of overcoming things like Goals, ambitions, money, and even drug and or physical/health issues.

You are married. You have to know that a relationship is an ongoing thing -- just like eating. There are going to be ups and downs. Being religious will not necessarily make the relationship, or marriage, any stronger. Divorce rates will show you that. In fact for a while it was argued that the Christians had the highest divorce rate of all and the atheists had the lowest. Then recently surveys were taken again and the divorce rate was found to be about equal between Christians and atheists. The conclusion was that the divorce rate was up among the atheists because of our bad economy. And the reason that the Christians had the higher divorce rate before was that they didn't tend to do as well financially as the atheists.

That said i am not saying two messed up people can not find happiness together. I am pointing out these are the exceptions and not the rule.

I'm don't think that you should view yourself as "messed up" just because you really want to meet the right person and get married. I think that a better, more honest view, would be that you are a normal human being. And it is just as normal to desire a relationship with a member of the opposite sex as it is to desire friendships.

---

Any group that finds it necessary to implore the superiority of the 'side hug' to its sexually repressed flock, for fear of arousal, has no business giving any type of relationship advice.

For the uninitiated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZnmTiqEikg

Christians should also stay the fuck away from rap and rock & roll.

That video is downright embarrassing!!!

[Drich]

It just seemed a bit hypocritical for him to stand up in front of the group and preach group "dating" while he did the standard dating himself. People in that group had gotten on my case because I had a "girlfriend" who I was just going on normal dates with. And no, at that time, I was not fooling around with her. They were honestly totally innocent dates.

I was a little annoyed. I was about the same age as him. What made me "less mature" of a Christian? Was it really any of their business? And I did not like that I was being viewed by them as "immature" -- almost like they were my superiors.

Christianity is not a "what is good for the goose is good for the gander" religion. It Never has been. throughout the writing of Paul, he seperates the Freedom Christ offers from those who do not understand or can not in good consciencous accept the freedom Christ offers. One of the more popular teachings on this is the "Meat offered to Idols." Paul tells us it is ok to eat this meat, but he says if a brother who was brought up in the tradition that meat offered to idols was sinful, and still believes this in light of this truth, then for Him it is a sin to eat of this meat. Subsequently it is also to eat this type of meat in his presents lest it causes him to sin. Paul goes on in other passages to teach this about all newly 'silent' areas of the bible including: Cleansing cermonies, Holy days, Marriage, Remaining single, Traditional unclean animals, and anything else that we do not have a direct "NT" Command.

Apply this to his ablity to date. If for him it was a non issue then he has been granted the freedom to date. at the same time he was tasked to not set an example that some of you were not able to live up to. so keeping his private life private was the right thing to do.

That would be no different than your trainer being able to indulge in a peice of cake when at his home. But when he is at work helping you to get or maintain fitness, then it would be wrong for him to eat cake infront of you or even talk about it least it causes you to stumble.

You know I never heard any porn connection mentioned in any of the talks about the evils of masturbation.

Some expressions of Christianity are like that, and others not so much.

Yeah but that can be true in any friendship.

Indeed, so why start the Biggest 'friendship' you will ever be apart of and look to start out by taking or leaning on the other person?

Do you tell that to a new kid at school who hasn't made any friends yet? Pull him aside and explain that the problem is that he is too "needy" and if he were to make friends he would just end up taking from the other kids -- and not giving enough to the friendship? And he needs to learn to be happy, and not lonely, by himself before he goes seeking friends?

Yes, and then you work with said kid to equip him with the tools to be content with whatever his situation.
Children who can not be alone grown into adults who can not be alone.

You are married. You have to know that a relationship is an ongoing thing -- just like eating.

I was not talking about the relationship when speaking of 'eating.' You orginally said that you had an emptyness and was looking to fill it with a relationship. What I am trying to say is if you do not learn to fill yourself/find peace contentment before you enter your relationship, you will 'eat' or consume your partner, rather than help each other sustain one another.

I'm don't think that you should view yourself as "messed up" just because you really want to meet the right person and get married.

Not what I said. What makes one "Messed up" is the idea that marriage will make you whole. Christians are as guilty of this as everyone else.

Maybe that is why their is no difference in the divorce rate.

[RichardP]

It just seemed a bit hypocritical for him to stand up in front of the group and preach group "dating" while he did the standard dating himself. People in that group had gotten on my case because I had a "girlfriend" who I was just going on normal dates with. And no, at that time, I was not fooling around with her. They were honestly totally innocent dates.

I was a little annoyed. I was about the same age as him. What made me "less mature" of a Christian? Was it really any of their business? And I did not like that I was being viewed by them as "immature" -- almost like they were my superiors.

Christianity is not a "what is good for the goose is good for the gander" religion. It Never has been. throughout the writing of Paul, he seperates the Freedom Christ offers from those who do not understand or can not in good consciencous accept the freedom Christ offers. One of the more popular teachings on this is the "Meat offered to Idols." Paul tells us it is ok to eat this meat, but he says if a brother who was brought up in the tradition that meat offered to idols was sinful, and still believes this in light of this truth, then for Him it is a sin to eat of this meat. Subsequently it is also to eat this type of meat in his presents lest it causes him to sin. Paul goes on in other passages to teach this about all newly 'silent' areas of the bible including: Cleansing cermonies, Holy days, Marriage, Remaining single, Traditional unclean animals, and anything else that we do not have a direct "NT" Command.

Apply this to his ablity to date. If for him it was a non issue then he has been granted the freedom to date. at the same time he was tasked to not set an example that some of you were not able to live up to. so keeping his private life private was the right thing to do.

That would be no different than your trainer being able to indulge in a peice of cake when at his home. But when he is at work helping you to get or maintain fitness, then it would be wrong for him to eat cake infront of you or even talk about it least it causes you to stumble.

You know I never heard any porn connection mentioned in any of the talks about the evils of masturbation.

Some expressions of Christianity are like that, and others not so much.

Yeah but that can be true in any friendship.

Indeed, so why start the Biggest 'friendship' you will ever be apart of and look to start out by taking or leaning on the other person?

Do you tell that to a new kid at school who hasn't made any friends yet? Pull him aside and explain that the problem is that he is too "needy" and if he were to make friends he would just end up taking from the other kids -- and not giving enough to the friendship? And he needs to learn to be happy, and not lonely, by himself before he goes seeking friends?

Yes, and then you work with said kid to equip him with the tools to be content with whatever his situation.
Children who can not be alone grown into adults who can not be alone.

You are married. You have to know that a relationship is an ongoing thing -- just like eating.

I was not talking about the relationship when speaking of 'eating.' You orginally said that you had an emptyness and was looking to fill it with a relationship. What I am trying to say is if you do not learn to fill yourself/find peace contentment before you enter your relationship, you will 'eat' or consume your partner, rather than help each other sustain one another.

I'm don't think that you should view yourself as "messed up" just because you really want to meet the right person and get married.

Not what I said. What makes one "Messed up" is the idea that marriage will make you whole. Christians are as guilty of this as everyone else.

Maybe that is why their is no difference in the divorce rate.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. You did a better job of illustrating the Christian perspective than I could have ever done. These views were some of the things that drove me away from Christianity and got me to begin questioning it.

How about the "side hug" video?!!

[Drich]

How about the "side hug" video?!!

I try and not watch videos. I made that mistake a couple different times on one of the other atheist sites and saw something that was not properly repersented. Bait and switch.

I'm sure it was awkward.

also:
1thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is good. To Question religion is not a sin.

[RichardP]

How about the "side hug" video?!!

I try and not watch videos. I made that mistake a couple different times on one of the other atheist sites and saw something that was not properly repersented. Bait and switch.

I'm sure it was awkward.

also:
1thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is good. To Question religion is not a sin.

This is a video made by Christians. I don't think it was supposed to be a joke.

[Minimalist]

the Christians were pushing "Group dating" rather than dating one-on-one.

You mean like orgies?

When I was in that collage age group, i started a singles group in my church which originally consisted of 6 members

I'll bet there were some sore wrists in that bunch.