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The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
#1
The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists

Some claim that it is impossible to prove that God exists. But the word of God declares otherwise.

Romans 1:19-20
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Therefore, God has declared that an understanding of the creation proves that God exists. Based on this wisdom from God Almighty, the following will show that this claim of God is true.

First consider the following. Walk around and point to the objects that people, through intelligence, have made. As you point out each of these objects, tell others that random chance made it - that the wind through random action formed it or that the rain through random chance made it. Tell them that each of these objects evolved from dust or that it just popped into existence. Grab a large book like “War and Peace,” open it up, and say that the words that make up the book just happened by random chance and that no intelligent person wrote it. Go and log onto a computer and view places from around the world. Tell everyone that the computer and the network evolved by themselves and that no intelligent being designed them. Now as you do this, people will think that you are playing a joke on them or acting weird. If it weren’t being done on purpose, they would believe you were totally crazy. And they would be right. Everyone can, almost without thinking, agree that an intelligently designed object was made by an intelligent being.

Now people have made trillions of objects and all people can tell without much trouble that intelligent people made these objects. This is a very powerful scientific experiment. It is real science (knowledge). It possesses all the attributes of real science. It is observable in the present. It is repeatable. It has predictive capabilities. For example, take a digital camera and demonstrate it to someone. This experiment predicts that people will identify it as designed by an intelligent maker, in this case, mankind. The experiment can be repeated and tested over and over again. The results will be the same. This is real, repeatable, testable, operational, and observable science. All people use this law or principle many times each and every day of their lives.

It is interesting that modern science itself agrees with this law. The anthropologist is certain of the past existence of a group of ancient people when a sharpened piece of flint used as a cutting tool is found. The same anthropologist infers that intelligent people made certain paintings in a cave in France. The same anthropologist sees carved letters on a wall and identifies it as ancient writing by intelligent people. Modern scientists are certain that Stonehenge and the pyramids were built by intelligent civilizations. In the movie, “2001: A Space Odyssey,” the ultra-smooth and exactly shaped monolith is immediately seen as proof of the existence of other intelligent beings. In the movie, “Contact,” an information-rich signal proves the existence of intelligent alien life. Modern astronomers search space for any information-rich signal as proof of intelligent alien life.

Thus a law of science (knowledge) has now been established. This law is the law that the existence of intelligently made objects proves the existence (either in the present or at one time in the past) of an intelligent creator. A somewhat formal statement of this law is the following. The existence of functional, information-rich, organized, complex, ordered, and designed objects proves the existence of an intelligent being or beings that made them. Furthermore, as the quantity of such objects becomes large, the existence of the intelligent being(s) becomes certain. Furthermore, as the complexity, functionality, organization, order, and information content of the designed objects becomes large, the existence of the intelligent being(s) also becomes certain. Therefore, as the number of objects, which have extremely large amounts of complexity, organization, information content, order, and functionality, becomes large, the existence of the intelligent being(s) is doubly certain. Finally this becomes triply certain if these objects are interconnected and interrelated in a very complex, functional, information-rich, orderly and designed manner.

The following examples will help illustrate this law. The use of the terms - prove, certain, doubly certain and triply certain - will also be illustrated. An easy way to understand these terms, in the order given, is the phrase “how much more so.”

Consider the letters, written or printed in ink, which make up the text of a book. Now ink left on its own does not form itself into nice, neat looking letters. Ink on its own does not form into same-sized letters. Ink does not arrange itself into letters in rows where the letters are the same size, the rows are of equal spacing, and the letters are equally spaced along the rows. Ink on its own does not form itself into the shapes of the letters of a specific alphabet, displayed in a particular font. Ink by itself does not produce correctly spelled words and grammatically correct sentences. Ink certainly by itself does not produce coherent stories or books. But an intelligent person can arrange ink into letters, which are equally spaced along rows, where the rows are equally spaced down the page. An intelligent person can arrange the letters into correctly spelled words and make grammatically correct sentences. And an intelligent person can write a book, which is a beautiful story with plot, characters, themes, and descriptions, which makes sense and communicates to a reader the ideas in the author’s head.

Ink by itself does not arrange itself into books. It is not inherent in the ink to do so. Random processes, which means without any intelligence, will not cause ink to do any of these things either. In fact, nowhere, throughout the entire universe, for all time, has ink on its own ever formed itself into a coherently written book, not even a very small book. Random processes have never done this either. It takes an intelligent person to do that. It takes an intelligent person to produce such information as the letters of a book exactly arranged into a coherent story. Therefore if a person were to pick up a book and read it, that person would prove that an intelligent author had written the information in that book. The person would conclude that the author must have existed and possibly still exists if not now dead. The existence of the author has been proven without the person ever having met the author. No person, who ever lived, anywhere, could claim that there was no author to the book. To do so would be to abandon all rational thought.

Now consider a large city. During a typical day, vast amounts of materials and products are brought into the city. These include water, food, and other materials for consumption by people, the production of products, and the building of structures. These materials also are used for repairs in the city. Many people and vehicles travel in and out of the city as well as from location to location within the city. A multitude of conversations and other communications occur all day throughout the city. Waste materials are gathered and removed. Products are shipped into, around, and out from the city. Traffic lights control the flow of vehicles and moderate the flow of pedestrians. Newspapers, letters, and advertisements are written everyday. People send emails, text messages, and make phone calls throughout the day. People eat at restaurants, buy food at markets, and prepare meals at home.

Now the raw materials that make up these products, vehicles, and buildings by themselves do not arrange themselves into such useful shapes. The materials that make up the waste produced by the city, on their own, don’t dispose of themselves in a timely, orderly fashion. The materials that are used to repair things like buildings and vehicles don’t, by themselves, make repairs. The materials that make up computers, cell phones, and TV screens don’t, by themselves, come together to produce useful data and images. The materials that make up the computers don’t on their own turn themselves into useful hardware and software. These abilities are not inherent in the actual materials. Random processes won’t cause these materials to do so either. In fact, nowhere, throughout the entire universe, for all time, have these materials ever organized themselves, on their own, into working computers, vehicles, etc. Obviously the people in that city are using their intelligence to produce these things. No person could ever claim that the operations of that city could exist except by the actions of intelligent people. The existence of the intelligent people that built and run the city has been proven from the things that were made.

Now what about things that were not made by mankind? Consider living things. You and I were not created by mankind. Yet all living things are way more complex, more ordered, have more information content and show more evidence of design than anything people have made. An adult weighing about 180 pounds contains almost 100 trillion or 10^14 cells in his or her body. A cell may have 100 trillion (10^14) atoms in it. A 180-pound adult has ten thousand trillion, trillion or 10^28 atoms in his or her body. The DNA code in a person’s cells contains so much information that it would take about 1,000 encyclopedia volumes, each 1,000 pages long, just to write that code. Those are not random letters but are very ordered, functional, and information-rich content quite similar to the letters that make up the text of a large book, but multiplied by a thousand. The letters of that code are the instructions to not only reproduce children but to run every aspect of a person’s body, including the operations of every organ and cell. There are many different kinds of cells in your body – muscle cells, fat cells, blood cells, nerve cells, etc. In all living things, there are millions of different kinds of cells.

The DNA and RNA codes for all living species would more than fill the entire 650 miles of shelving of the Library of Congress, if they were written out in books. Each cell is more complex than anything that people have made or designed. Inside each cell are many different kinds of proteins. There are billions of different kinds of proteins in all living things. These are complex molecules (an information rich sequence of amino acid) that carry out chemical functions within the cell. These proteins are like complex nano-sized machines carrying out complex biochemical functions. Some proteins are small (insulin is less than 100 amino acids long). Some proteins are over 10,000 amino acids long. Proteins work together with other proteins. Some of these proteins must be folded into complex, very exact 3D shapes or else they do not function correctly. There may be millions of one type of protein in a single cell. Now the DNA code is used to create RNA code, which is used to encode and create proteins. But to duplicate the DNA code, which is needed to produce offspring, proteins and RNA are needed. So each depends on the other and the cell cannot live or replicate without all the parts and the DNA code functioning. Yet for all this complexity, a person is miraculously designed and functional.

In fact, mankind does not yet understand exactly how these cells function in all their details. Scientists have not yet created a living cell from raw chemical material. They can clone one cell from another living cell but not from raw non-living materials. Even if scientists do eventually create a cell from raw materials, it would be the result of intelligent design and not random, unintelligent processes. Not a single cell or living thing has been observed to come into existence on its own unless made from a living cell. Nowhere in the entire universe has this been observed to happen. The fact that life comes from life is irrefutable science. The fact that cells come from cells is irrefutable science.

The materials that make up living things never, on their own, form a cell or long DNA strands or large proteins. In fact, nowhere, throughout the entire universe, for all time, has this ever been observed to happen. In fact, it could not even happen by chance. Even if these materials do begin to join together, the molecules have no inherent way of lining up into very specific functional DNA code sequences or the coding of a specific large protein. Any linking up in such a manner would be destroyed by chemical reactions with other elements and molecules.

Now there are an enormous number of multi-cell organisms on the earth. There are even a larger number of single cell organisms. In the multi-cell organisms, there are an enormous number of cells. Within all these cells (whether single cell organisms or the cells of multi-cell organisms) are an enormous number of complex proteins. The workings of a cell are more complex than the workings of a city. In terms of numbers, a cell produces more proteins and other chemical products than a city produces products. A single person’s body contains almost 100 trillion cells. So a person is more complex than all civilizations that have ever existed. None of the operations and complexity of a cell are inherent in the materials that make up a cell. When a cell dies, it begins to break down and this organization is lost. In fact, the materials must be constantly replenished and waste material removed for the cell to stay functional and survive. Furthermore, organisms reproduce. So the proteins and the DNA code not only run the operations of the cells and the organism, but they also work to produce more organisms.

The information contained in the DNA codes of all species that have ever lived is more than all books that have been produced by mankind. It is not possible that such vast information came into existence without an intelligent Creator, God. It would be ludicrous to think that ink formed itself into the text on the pages of a book, even a very small book. It is not in the nature of ink to do so. Only an intelligent being can do that. A single book proves the existence of the author, and 20 different books how much more so. Yet the information content in the DNA codes and in the proteins of living things is greater than the information in all the books ever written. Therefore it is for certain that God Almighty created all things.

The operations and workings of all the cells and proteins in all living things that have ever lived dwarf all the complexities of all civilizations that mankind has ever produced. It would be ludicrous to think that a city came into being and operates without intelligent beings, even a very small town. It is not in the nature of the materials that make up a city to do that by themselves. It takes intelligence to do that. The existence of a single city proves the existence of intelligent beings. Yet the operations and workings of all living cells and proteins dwarf that of all of mankind’s civilizations. Therefore it is for certain that God Almighty created all things.

Since the amount of information in all DNA codes is very large and the number of living cells is very large, it is doubly certain that God Almighty the Creator exists. If a person were to point to all the books ever written and all the things that mankind has ever made and claim that these came about without any intelligent being at all, this would be far less ludicrous than if a person were to look at the workings and information content of all living things, cells, and proteins and claim that it came about without an intelligent Creator. But there is much more to prove that the Creator exists.

The information in the DNA code is used to create the proteins, which carryout the operations of the cell. But the proteins translate all that information and are used to replicate the DNA to reproduce new organisms. Now the cells form different types of tissue that make up the body of an organism. This all works because of the basic laws of chemistry and physics that govern the operation of the molecules, atoms, and subatomic particles which make up the cells and proteins. In fact, cells, proteins, DNA codes and higher level organisms could not even exist if the laws of nature were not designed so perfectly and so finely tuned as to make life even possible. While all this goes on at the microscopic, atomic and subatomic levels, a person can go about his or her day and not even be aware of all this enormous complexity and activity. An adult person is a collection of almost million, trillion, trillion (10^30) subatomic particles and yet that person can write books and build cities. Therefore even the products of mankind’s intelligence are really the outcome from all the miraculous workings of the DNA code, proteins and cells operating with the elegant laws of physics and chemistry. With all that going on at the microscopic level, a person can think, love and enjoy life. Two people can communicate with words, music, and writing. A person can feel the joy of seeing his or her baby smile.

Since the living things discussed so far are extremely large in number, and extremely large in the amount of functionality and information content, and since all these things are interconnected and interrelated in an extremely complex way, it is triply certain that God Almighty the Creator of all things exists. This is an irrefutable proof. Furthermore, since the wisdom for this irrefutable logic is clearly stated in the Holy Bible (Romans 1:19-20), the very Book claimed to be from God Almighty the Creator, the Holy Bible must be the very word of God. No other book matches the Bible in this manner. No other book declares the existence of God Almighty, the Creator of all things, proves it, and truly glorifies Him alone. Therefore, the Holy Bible must be the word of God Almighty, the Creator of all things.

Atheistic origin science (“science falsely so called”)

Now from the discussion so far, such an incredible creation proves that the Creator of the creation exists. But this Creator must have power and intelligence beyond our comprehension. Since life is intelligently designed, this Creator must be a living and intelligent being who has always existed, that is, God Almighty. To conclude otherwise is, well to put it kindly, foolish. Yet atheistic origin science refuses to accept this obvious conclusion from the facts. “Atheistic origin science” is a false science that excludes God the Creator from the study of origins. It is in essence atheism, the belief that there is no God Almighty. Therefore atheistic origin science has offered a counter explanation, one that tries to explain this incredibly designed universe and all living things as having evolved from nothing and random chance. But atheistic origin science has a lot of explaining to do to counter the very obvious and scientific conclusion that God, the Almighty Creator, indeed created all things. A thorough investigation into the facts, the laws of nature, mathematics, and logic will prove that this alternative explanation, of an origin without God, is totally false and contradictory.

Therefore, a second irrefutable proof of the existence of God Almighty the Creator can be made. Assume indeed that atheistic origin science is correct, and all of the creation can be explained without God by the laws of nature and random chance. As will be shown, this assumed theory will prove to be false. And since the only alternative to a Creator is false, then again the fact that the Creator, God Almighty, exists will have been proven again.
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#2
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
Tell you what...
How about you go and read some fucking real books about evolution and not just the vile rubbish spewed out by Ken Ham, Ray Comfort and all those other lying pieces of shit and the we can have a reasonable discussion.

Until then you're not worth my time.
[Image: mybannerglitter06eee094.gif]
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
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#3
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JFfN5pKzFU
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#4
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
SPG, remember that talk we had about first establishing that your one and only source book can be taken seriously before any claims or extrapolations made from it can possibly make the slightest sense?

Until you can do that, why should we take anything you pull from the book as any kind of authority? How can you claim it proves anything if you haven't proved it to bear any resemblance to reality?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#5
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
(October 2, 2013 at 7:10 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists

Some claim that it is impossible to prove that God exists. But the word of God declares otherwise.

Okay, look: I'm going to attempt to approach this seriously, because the sheer length of this post kind of disabuses me of the notion that you're a poe, and so it's possible that you're just deeply mistaken here, but starting with circular reasoning isn't going to get you anywhere nice. Come on.

Quote:First consider the following. Walk around and point to the objects that people, through intelligence, have made. As you point out each of these objects, tell others that random chance made it - that the wind through random action formed it or that the rain through random chance made it. Tell them that each of these objects evolved from dust or that it just popped into existence. Grab a large book like “War and Peace,” open it up, and say that the words that make up the book just happened by random chance and that no intelligent person wrote it. Go and log onto a computer and view places from around the world. Tell everyone that the computer and the network evolved by themselves and that no intelligent being designed them. Now as you do this, people will think that you are playing a joke on them or acting weird. If it weren’t being done on purpose, they would believe you were totally crazy. And they would be right. Everyone can, almost without thinking, agree that an intelligently designed object was made by an intelligent being.

Do you know how people actually identify design? You seem to think that you just assert it because a given thing is complex, and it is so, but that's not right at all. No, we recognize design through comparison; the only reason we have a concept of design is to differentiate it from things made in a natural way, right? That's the way we identify an object as being designed; we examine its properties and compare it to other things in the world, along with our knowledge of designed/undesigned things, that we have gained through further past comparisons.

We do not, however, just intuit design apropos of nothing; everything we do is through comparison and contrast, because we don't know anything without being taught it externally.

Quote:It is interesting that modern science itself agrees with this law. The anthropologist is certain of the past existence of a group of ancient people when a sharpened piece of flint used as a cutting tool is found.

Like here: the reason we know the sharpened flint has been designed is because of the sharpening, something that we do not see in nature. Very good example, that.

Quote:The same anthropologist infers that intelligent people made certain paintings in a cave in France.

And again, why do we infer this? Because the figures and pictographs do not occur naturally.

Quote:The materials that make up the computers don’t on their own turn themselves into useful hardware and software. These abilities are not inherent in the actual materials. Random processes won’t cause these materials to do so either.

This is the part where I start rolling my eyes, because you clearly are avoiding the difference between living matter and nonliving matter; nobody, at all, claims that nonliving matter can do these things. This is silly.

Quote:Now what about things that were not made by mankind? Consider living things. You and I were not created by mankind.

My parents beg to differ, and I bet yours do too.

Quote: Yet all living things are way more complex, more ordered, have more information content and show more evidence of design than anything people have made.

And as we've already established, complexity isn't the way that one identifies design.

Quote:The DNA code in a person’s cells contains so much information that it would take about 1,000 encyclopedia volumes, each 1,000 pages long, just to write that code. Those are not random letters but are very ordered, functional, and information-rich content quite similar to the letters that make up the text of a large book, but multiplied by a thousand.

Christ, this information idiocy again... Listen: the processes of DNA are entirely natural, chemical things. It's just chemicals functioning in accordance with the laws of physics. This stuff about codes, about letters, about instructions, that's all metaphoric language by human beings in order to abstract a complex chemical phenomena into something a layperson like you or I can understand. DNA code isn't literally information, except in the sense that everything is; right now, the grass in my garden is conveying positional information, for example.

Somebody has conned you with this fraudulent idea, and I'd suggest you look into how DNA actually forms and replicates before you continue with this fallacious argument.

Quote:The letters of that code are the instructions to not only reproduce children but to run every aspect of a person’s body, including the operations of every organ and cell.

No, those things are the eventual effects of the chemical processes involved in the creation of DNA.

Quote: Yet for all this complexity, a person is miraculously designed and functional.

And there you go begging the question, but I'll get into that later.

Quote:In fact, mankind does not yet understand exactly how these cells function in all their details. Scientists have not yet created a living cell from raw chemical material.

Argument from ignorance. "We don't understand it, therefore god."

Quote: They can clone one cell from another living cell but not from raw non-living materials. Even if scientists do eventually create a cell from raw materials, it would be the result of intelligent design and not random, unintelligent processes.

Okay, I guess I'll do this now, then: what the hell do you think you're doing? This is the most dishonest part of these idiotic intelligent design arguments; if it's made naturally, you say it's designed. If scientists make it, you say it's designed... anyone familiar with the scientific method already knows where I'm going with this.

Yes, where's the falsifiability? You keep prattling on about science, but a key component of the scientific method is falsifiability, but how do you intend to propose a method of falsification when you label literally every possible permutation of this as designed, sight unseen?

Furthermore, you're begging the question: your premises go a: complex things are designed, b: DNA is complex, c: therefore DNA is designed, but since you've never demonstrated the truth of premise a, it's completely dishonest of you to continue the argument until you do. You're operating under the basal assumption that everything is designed, sans evidence, and from there defining the terms: that's not the way we do things here.

Quote:Not a single cell or living thing has been observed to come into existence on its own unless made from a living cell. Nowhere in the entire universe has this been observed to happen. The fact that life comes from life is irrefutable science. The fact that cells come from cells is irrefutable science.

And another argument from ignorance: "I've never seen it done this way, therefore this other way is true." No, that's incorrect, and calling it irrefutable just looks arrogant.

Quote:The materials that make up living things never, on their own, form a cell or long DNA strands or large proteins.

How do you know?

Quote: In fact, nowhere, throughout the entire universe, for all time, has this ever been observed to happen.

Argument from ignorance.

Quote: In fact, it could not even happen by chance.

By fiat assertion: I'll dismiss it out of hand. How do you know?

Quote: Even if these materials do begin to join together, the molecules have no inherent way of lining up into very specific functional DNA code sequences or the coding of a specific large protein.

It's called the laws of physics. Look it up.

Quote:The information contained in the DNA codes of all species that have ever lived is more than all books that have been produced by mankind. It is not possible that such vast information came into existence without an intelligent Creator, God

How do you know?

Quote:It would be ludicrous to think that ink formed itself into the text on the pages of a book, even a very small book. It is not in the nature of ink to do so. Only an intelligent being can do that. A single book proves the existence of the author, and 20 different books how much more so. Yet the information content in the DNA codes and in the proteins of living things is greater than the information in all the books ever written. Therefore it is for certain that God Almighty created all things.

Go back, look over the things I've written, and be embarrassed about how confidently you asserted this.

Quote:Since the amount of information in all DNA codes is very large and the number of living cells is very large, it is doubly certain that God Almighty the Creator exists. If a person were to point to all the books ever written and all the things that mankind has ever made and claim that these came about without any intelligent being at all, this would be far less ludicrous than if a person were to look at the workings and information content of all living things, cells, and proteins and claim that it came about without an intelligent Creator. But there is much more to prove that the Creator exists.

Have I mentioned the argument from personal incredulity yet? Because literally your entire post boils down to that.

Quote: This all works because of the basic laws of chemistry and physics that govern the operation of the molecules, atoms, and subatomic particles which make up the cells and proteins. In fact, cells, proteins, DNA codes and higher level organisms could not even exist if the laws of nature were not designed so perfectly and so finely tuned as to make life even possible.

You do understand that you're cheating now, right? If you begin from the assumption that everything is designed, of course you're going to come to the conclusion that things are designed, but my question to you is, why are you making that assumption, and how do you justify it?

I am amazed that now you're claiming the laws of physics are designed; this is just kindergarten logic. "DNA must be created, because it's so complex and there's no natural process that can do it!" Actually, there is, it's the laws of physics. "... The laws of physics are designed too!"

Well shit, why not just tar everything with that brush and save yourself the billions of words you've used to obfuscate the basics of your argument, which is simply a demand that everything is designed?

Quote:Since the living things discussed so far are extremely large in number, and extremely large in the amount of functionality and information content, and since all these things are interconnected and interrelated in an extremely complex way, it is triply certain that God Almighty the Creator of all things exists. This is an irrefutable proof.

Argument from incredulity, and definitely not irrefutable proof.

Quote:Furthermore, since the wisdom for this irrefutable logic is clearly stated in the Holy Bible (Romans 1:19-20), the very Book claimed to be from God Almighty the Creator, the Holy Bible must be the very word of God. No other book matches the Bible in this manner. No other book declares the existence of God Almighty, the Creator of all things, proves it, and truly glorifies Him alone. Therefore, the Holy Bible must be the word of God Almighty, the Creator of all things.

A pile of flat assertions with no proof backing them, but they do bring me to another point: everything you've written, even if it's correct- and it's not- only gets you to a creator, not your god. Not any specific god.

Congratulations: your own argument doesn't even prove your position.

Quote:Atheistic origin science (“science falsely so called”)

And what scientific qualifications do you have, incidentally? Thinking

Quote:Now from the discussion so far, such an incredible creation proves that the Creator of the creation exists. But this Creator must have power and intelligence beyond our comprehension. Since life is intelligently designed, this Creator must be a living and intelligent being who has always existed, that is, God Almighty. To conclude otherwise is, well to put it kindly, foolish.

What's next, in free association theater? I can't wait to find out! Rolleyes

Quote: Yet atheistic origin science refuses to accept this obvious conclusion from the facts. “Atheistic origin science” is a false science that excludes God the Creator from the study of origins.

Wrong: science says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of something, and it excludes nothing from investigation. Science simply follows where the evidence leads; your problem is that because the evidence doesn't lead where you want it to, and doesn't serve your purposes, you're wanting to scrap the entire thing. It doesn't work that way.

Quote: It is in essence atheism, the belief that there is no God Almighty.

Since more than ten pages of your previous thread has explained to you that this isn't so, I have no compunction in calling you an idiot and a liar for claiming this.

Quote:Therefore atheistic origin science has offered a counter explanation, one that tries to explain this incredibly designed universe and all living things as having evolved from nothing and random chance.

Oh look, a strawman. How surprising.

Quote: But atheistic origin science has a lot of explaining to do to counter the very obvious and scientific conclusion that God, the Almighty Creator, indeed created all things. A thorough investigation into the facts, the laws of nature, mathematics, and logic will prove that this alternative explanation, of an origin without God, is totally false and contradictory.

Translation: "Science disagrees with my petulant demands that there's a god, and therefore they need to disprove my vague, philosophical ramblings that redefine large swathes of terminology to suit my own ends, or else I'm right!"

It's a shifting of the burden of proof, super genius. You need to demonstrate your claims, science doesn't need to disprove them.

Quote:Therefore, a second irrefutable proof of the existence of God Almighty the Creator can be made. Assume indeed that atheistic origin science is correct, and all of the creation can be explained without God by the laws of nature and random chance. As will be shown, this assumed theory will prove to be false. And since the only alternative to a Creator is false, then again the fact that the Creator, God Almighty, exists will have been proven again.

...

I... I just... Did you just... Okay, let me get this straight: your "second irrefutable proof" is that, because the real science is wrong (something you've asserted sans evidence) then god must be true. So, non sequitur, by fiat assertions, made to the end of proving a false dichotomy.

Seriously, please stop reading creationist idiocy and open a real science textbook, educate yourself about this stuff, before you respond.

But, based on your past behaviour, you'll probably just ignore this... Rolleyes
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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#6
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
(October 2, 2013 at 7:58 am)Stimbo Wrote: SPG, remember [http://atheistforums.org/thread-21129-post-515511.html#pid515511]that talk we had[/url] about first establishing that your one and only source book can be taken seriously before any claims or extrapolations made from it can possibly make the slightest sense?

Until you can do that, why should we take anything you pull from the book as any kind of authority? How can you claim it proves anything if you haven't proved it to bear any resemblance to reality?

The quote from the Holy Bible was just a lead in to the ensuing discussion.

Proof 1 is only to establish that there must be a Creator, God.

After establishing that God exists, the Holy Bible will be established as His revelation. That part is still to come.

On Dawkins' scale, what number are you?
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#7
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
JANE STOP THIS CRAZY THING!

Complexity equals design? Do you really think you are the first to attempt this lame argument? So if everything is "designed" that would make CANCER designed, and parasites designed. You know there is a parasite which has a life cycle of following urine and swimming up the urinary tract infecting the male penis causing severe pain?


You cant have it both ways bud. If everything is designed, that means the bad shit too.
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#8
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
(October 2, 2013 at 8:06 am)Esquilax Wrote:


The fact that the universe exists, the laws of nature exists, and the complexity, information, order and functionality of living things exists requires the atheist to come up with some plausible explanation.

You will have to explain how all of the universe and all of the DNA codes, cells, and all the species came into existence.

All attempts have and will always fail.

I will be adding a topic to start that discussion tomorrow.
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#9
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
Wow - what a torrent of information that was. Very good effort, almost convincing in parts.

As ever, though, there is a problem or two (well a few more actually) but in order to address those we need to get you to stop sitting back admiring your work and actually read what is being written.

If you do this you will realize that what you have put together - magnificent as it is - is entirely wrong.

We'll take this one step at a time:

Argument number 1:

Let us start with the assumption that there is a designer God. We will further incorporate all the infallible, all knowing stuff.

So we have perfect God making life perfectly in all its profundity.

God made everything - from the smallest amoeba to Humans, from ants to giraffes and so on.

Now as you know a human being is a much more complex creature than an amoeba which would require much less coding from God to make it.

The RNA that codes for Amoeba's is obviously much simpler than that for a human being, right?

Trouble is - the RNA code for an amoeba is 5 times larger than the DNA code for a human being.....

Which either means we have a God learning on the job or there is no God.

But God knows everything - so he can't be learning on the job.

Therefore, there is no God.
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#10
RE: The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)
(October 2, 2013 at 8:23 am)SavedByGraceThruFaith Wrote: The fact that the universe exists, the laws of nature exists, and the complexity, information, order and functionality of living things exists requires the atheist to come up with some plausible explanation.

Well, first of all, no it doesn't; we're not required to disprove a thing before you give it up. Quite the reverse; if you want to be taken seriously you need to demonstrate your claims, not simply throw your arms wide and say "look at all these things that exist!" as you have so far.

Your accusation here is a shifting of the burden of proof. God is not the neutral position, it's a claim that needs proving, not just asserting.

Second of all, we do have numerous explanations, in the science you deride because it disagrees with your assumed conclusions. Would you be willing to do some research in mainstream science?

Quote:You will have to explain how all of the universe and all of the DNA codes, cells, and all the species came into existence.

And these questions are being worked on. Us not having an answer now does not make your answer true just because you took the time to propose it.

Quote:All attempts have and will always fail.

Well, just so long as you have an open mind. Rolleyes

Quote:I will be adding a topic to start that discussion tomorrow.

Could it have actual evidence, when you do?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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