Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

[daandaan]

yeah , ik now.... ur kristian lecture..

A and P stood for science and logic, philosophy , thats really unlike U kristians...

a better proof u really couldt deliver..






hahahahahahahahahaha

[Tonus]

By keeping Church and state separate you could say they were following Christs teaching of rendering to Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods. Christianity was never intended to be some kind of a theocracy.

So all that talk about how god would crush human kingdoms and establish a rulership that would last to time indefinite so that every knee may bend etc etc was just... ???

[Cyberman]

Since atheism is, ideally, the emancipation of people from the shackles of dogmatic belief

*coughs*

"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

Point out where Jesus states anyone should be chained to the shackles of dogmatic belief. Atheism is the dogmatic belief you're chained to.

Please enlighten me; to what dogmatic belief are atheists enchained?

And I should get that cough seen to, if I were you. Might be nasty.

then no it's not an exclusive in-crowd. You're quite correct that a person's belief is as likely to be wrong as right; that's why I and many others endeavour to ensure that such beliefs as we choose to have are as correct as we can possibly make them

You're not being very correct if God exists so you're still potentially making a blinder of an error there if he does and you're dismissing him out of hand. Sure a lot of people in the world will be wrong about something and we can't be sure exactly who that will be or what they will be wrong about but don't just assume you have the right idea.

Pascal's Wager? Seriously?

And again, what idea do I assume I have?

not merely adopted out of hand and against all evidence to the contrary.

Are you sure about that? I'm under the impression that's what most atheists are essentially doing.

Quite sure, thanks. As demonstrated rather beautifully by the pages and pages of evidence that atheists have presented on these very boards, compared to the equivalent number of pages of theists with their fingers in their ears and shouting "T'isn't!"

Read what I said again, presented here for your convenience. You answered a point I didn't make while missing the one I did.

I agree that it was founded as a secular nation but I pointed out that Christianity isn't against secularism in the freedom of religion sense. So it's still a very good Christian foundation in the spirit of what Jesus taught.

And yet again, you miss the point I'm making while addressing one I didn't. I'll reiterate and clarify for you:

In response to this post:

If Jesus had been invented it then would have gone something like this.

"Good news Christ has risen!"

"Who?"

"Jesus Christ was executed a few years and rose again?"

"No I don't remember him around these here parts"

"Perhaps you just forgot about him. it was about 20 years ago?"

"No I think I would remember him."

And that would have killed the movement in it's tracks.

and its suggestion that real events within living memory would cancel out the adoption of an alternative reinterpretation of history, to put it politely, I offered an example of a popular belief which actually is propogated as fact despite having a much more recent origin; ie, the US Pledge of Allegiance contains the "One Nation Under God" line, therefore the country was founded as a xtain nation, even though the words were only added in 1954. I see no evidence that the reality has "killed the movement in it's [sic] tracks"

[Sword of Christ]

So all that talk about how god would crush human kingdoms and establish a rulership that would last to time indefinite so that every knee may bend etc etc was just... ???

I don't think Jesus anything like that but if you mean crush the idolatrous corrupt man made kingdoms of this world and replace them with the heavenly kingdom of God which isn't of this this world emancipating humanity I suppose that's fine. You can see what happened to the Soviet Union, utterly crushed by the power of the people, willed by God of course.

[daandaan]

So all that talk about how god would crush human kingdoms and establish a rulership that would last to time indefinite so that every knee may bend etc etc was just... ???

I don't think Jesus anything like that but if you mean crush the idolatrous corrupt man made kingdoms of this world and replace them with the heavenly kingdom of God which isn't of this this world emancipating humanity I suppose that's fine. You can see what happened to the Soviet Union, utterly crushed by the power of the people, willed by God of course.

like is happening now to good kristian america going bankrupt..

hahahahahahaha

[Sword of Christ]

Please enlighten me; to what dogmatic belief are atheists enchained?

I don't agree with him 100% or even 50% but on the basic premise he's right at least. Atheism and the what is taken to be "science" tend to be considered to be one and the same thing.

And I should get that cough seen to, if I were you. Might be nasty.

It's not an infection I was just taken aback.

Pascal's Wager? Seriously?

No I was just pointing out the materialistic assumption you were making without realizing you were making it. You just take it for granted that this is true unless proven otherwise.

Quite sure, thanks. As demonstrated rather beautifully by the pages and pages of evidence that atheists have presented on these very boards, compared to the equivalent number of pages of theists with their fingers in their ears and shouting "T'isn't!"

We share the same scientific evidence of the exact same universe, there is no "evidence of atheism". Where are getting this from?

And yet again, you miss the point I'm making while addressing one I didn't. I'll reiterate and clarify for you:


and its suggestion that real events within living memory would cancel out the adoption of an alternative reinterpretation of history, to put it politely, I offered an exampleof a popular belief which actually is propogated as fact despite having a much more recent origin; ie, the US Pledge of Allegiance contains the "One Nation Under God" line, therefore the country was founded as a xtain nation, even though the words were only added in 1954. I see no evidence that the reality has "killed the movement in it's [sic] tracks"

The NT already covered the possibility that the faith is a mistake.

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

So this has already been covered, if you're wrong then you're wrong there's nothing you can do about it. But it goes on to give some assurance to the faithful that Christ was indeed raised from death as will we all be. That's the idea of the faith/belief. So you apparently lost your faith but we can put it down to defeatism/nihilism on your part not rationalism or science. God is perfectly rational as an existential concept and science does not or ever could in anyway disprove Gods existence. You either believe or you don't and you have the freedom of choice either way. What you believe right now could easily be an error of judgement on your part if you have have been taken in by a human made ideology which denies the existence of anything beyond this transitory world and claims it merely exists by purposeless accident. To believe in this I think there is an awful lot of stuff you just have to ignore or deny.

[daandaan]

``God is perfectly rational as an existential concept and science does not or ever could in anyway disprove Gods existence.``


science disproved god succesfully ...

now....how you reconcile reality with the fact that your precious buybull says the sun, moon and stars all dangle under giant body of water in the sky ??

[max-greece]

"Kristian" America now owes $17 Trillion. Amazing isn't it.

Of course that's small change compared to their unfunded liabilities - currently about $120 trillion.

You can see it all live and on-line at http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Isn't technology marvellous!!

[Minimalist]

Saint Paul claims there were around 300 people still alive at his time of writing

"Paul" is a pile of shit, too. Early xtian writers like Justin Martyr never heard of the fucker.

[max-greece]

The NT already covered the possibility that the faith is a mistake.

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

So this has already been covered, if you're wrong then you're wrong there's nothing you can do about it. But it goes on to give some assurance to the faithful that Christ was indeed raised from death as will we all be. That's the idea of the faith/belief. So you apparently lost your faith but we can put it down to defeatism/nihilism on your part not rationalism or science. God is perfectly rational as an existential concept and science does not or ever could in anyway disprove Gods existence. You either believe or you don't and you have the freedom of choice either way. What you believe right now could easily be an error of judgement on your part if you have have been taken in by a human made ideology which denies the existence of anything beyond this transitory world and claims it merely exists by purposeless accident. To believe in this I think there is an awful lot of stuff you just have to ignore or deny.

Really - there's a lot of stuff atheists have to deny?

Now lets see - here's a reply I made to you in another thread that I think you missed, talking of things that have to be ignored/denied....

Why am I an atheist?

Well I like to think of myself as a largely logical sort of fellow so here's my thought process:

Something started the universe:

Possibly nothingness started it or it started on its own but lets just say something did:

Did it start it deliberately or was in a accident? How can we know?
Did it have to have intelligence? Could it have been caused by another natural phenomenon? Like the collapse of a previous universe (assuming time applies outside this universe in the same way as it does in it). If time behaves differently this universe could have been started by its own ultimate collapse for all I know?

So suppose it was the deliberate act of a creator God - or a committee of gods perhaps (we'll use the singular from now on - just for ease):

Could have been an act of whimsy?
Could be a deist hands-off sort of God?

Now we know that it all started 13.72 billion years ago.

Apparently just under 70% of the universe is Dark matter.
Just under 30% is Dark energy.

The remainder is everything we can see - stars, planets, galaxies, pulsars - the lot. About 1% of the total.

Of that 1%:

We know (in the known universe) that there are about 100 billion galaxies containing some 10^23 stars.

We know that on the outer arm, of an outer arm, of an utterly average galaxy there is a planet called earth that was "borne" some 4.5 billion years ago.

Now on that planet life started about 4 billion years ago.

For 3.5 billion years - single celled life only.
About 500 million years ago - the Cambrian explosion - mutli-cellular life

....5 great extinction events......> mammals (60 million years ago).

.....200,000 years ago -> Man.

Now, is it reasonable to assume there's a god, your god, who wants us to worship him, needs us to tell him how wonderful he is, watches what we do and keeps a log, rewards good behaviour and punishes bad behaviour......

Gotta go with no. Frankly I'm on the no side for the deist God too.

Just doesn't seem to be required. No observation yet made needs a God to explain it.

There is simply no reason I can see to believe.