Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.

[Huggy Bear]

Answer this question, did Plato exist?

Yeah, as far as we can tell anyway.

who's "we"? I doubt you've done any extensive research into Plato you've just accepted what you were told by someone else, which is fine, which leads into my next question, what is your view based on?

[FatAndFaithless]

Yeah, as far as we can tell anyway.

who's "we"? I doubt you've done any extensive research into Plato you've just accepted what you were told by someone else, which is fine, which leads into my next question, what is your view based on?

Are...you serious? Are we going down the road of "unless you do the research yourself you're unjustified in believing something" or "you have just as much faith in Plato because you haven't done the research yourself"? It's really not my fault you haven't looked into this shit, Huggables. You can easily access disparate, contemporary primary sources that are corroborated and supported by each other, as well as secondary sources that expand on Plato and his existence. And if you had any sort of reasonable history education, you'd know that.

[Huggy Bear]

Yeah, as far as we can tell anyway.

Though he may have made up Socrates.

isn't that is whats claimed about Jesus? that he never existed and was just made up?

---

who's "we"? I doubt you've done any extensive research into Plato you've just accepted what you were told by someone else, which is fine, which leads into my next question, what is your view based on?

Are...you serious? Are we going down the road of "unless you do the research yourself you're unjustified in believing something" or "you have just as much faith in Plato because you haven't done the research yourself"? It's really not my fault you haven't looked into this shit, Huggables. You can easily access disparate, contemporary primary sources that are corroborated and supported by each other, as well as secondary sources that expand on Plato and his existence. And if you had any sort of reasonable history education, you'd know that.

You don't know what road I'm going down, just answer the question.

[Alex K]

A basic knowledge concerning the topic on which you're making the observation would help though.

Answer this question, did Plato exist?

The point is the following, and it is an important point: we do not hold the writings attributed to plato in particularly high regard just because they are from THE plato, the messiah, i.e. we do not assign special mythical value to a particular individual. These texts are valued because of their merit as philosophical texts, they stand on their own. Someone has written the stuff, and (assuming it was one person) that person by Definition is plato. If his or her name was Jim Smith or Jane Doe, then Jim Smith or Jane Doe IS Plato. So Plato, almost tautologically, does exist. With Jesus, you have this wild collection of tales about a person which need to be attributed or not to the deeds of a historical figure. In the case of Plato, the writing itself is the deed, and we have the evidence inour hands. The question is merely: are the remaining data about Plato correct.

[FatAndFaithless]

Though he may have made up Socrates.

isn't that is whats claimed about Jesus? that he never existed and was just made up?

---

Are...you serious? Are we going down the road of "unless you do the research yourself you're unjustified in believing something" or "you have just as much faith in Plato because you haven't done the research yourself"? It's really not my fault you haven't looked into this shit, Huggables. You can easily access disparate, contemporary primary sources that are corroborated and supported by each other, as well as secondary sources that expand on Plato and his existence. And if you had any sort of reasonable history education, you'd know that.

You don't know what road I'm going down, just answer the question.

My belief in based on the evidence, as beliefs should be.

[Huggy Bear]

isn't that is whats claimed about Jesus? that he never existed and was just made up?

---

You don't know what road I'm going down, just answer the question.

My belief in based on the evidence, as beliefs should be.

So your beliefs are based upon the writings, good to know.

Which is what I meant in my "observation".

[FatAndFaithless]

I have no idea what you're even trying to say anymore.

[LastPoet]

I have no idea what you're even trying to say anymore.

Oh? It is pretty clear to me:



In other words, be prepared to do anything... for jesus.

[Jenny A]

i was observing that when it came to other works of antiquity, whether it be Plato, Herodotus or Homer, the author is never questioned, not so with the Bible.

Then you are just plain unobservant. The very existence of Homer is questioned by scholars. And if he existed, it is certain that The Iliad and the Odyssey were oral tradition long before they were ever written down. http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/People/Homer/

Plato certainly existed. He is attested to by a variety of contemporary sources. His style is consistent and we can be pretty sure that the same man wrote his histories. But we don't have everything he wrote and we aren't sure that all of what is attributed to him was written by him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

We don't have contemporary sources for Herodotus, but he does write in the first person and much of what he observes can be verified. His writings are not taken as gospel proof of what he says though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

[Huggy Bear]

i was observing that when it came to other works of antiquity, whether it be Plato, Herodotus or Homer, the author is never questioned, not so with the Bible.

Then you are just plain unobservant. The very existence of Homer is questioned by scholars. And if he existed, it is certain that The Iliad and the Odyssey were oral tradition long before they were ever written down. http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/People/Homer/

Plato certainly existed. He is attested to by a variety of contemporary sources. His style is consistent and we can be pretty sure that the same man wrote his histories. But we don't have everything he wrote and we aren't sure that all of what is attributed to him was written by him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

We don't have contemporary sources for Herodotus, but he does write in the first person and much of what he observes can be verified. His writings are not taken as gospel proof of what he says though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

Maybe i was unclear, when I made this statement..

It always seems that as it relates to the Bible, the guy who's name is on a particular book, never actually wrote it. why is this? This is never said about Plato, or Herodotus... strange

It was in reference to the members of this forum. If I were to post the writing of Plato here, no one would question if he existed, but according to Minimalist for example, the apostle Paul never existed, despite there being just as much evidence if not more, for Paul as there is Plato.

The two most highly educated people in the Bible were Moses and Paul, Moses being educated by the Pharaoh, and Paul by the renowned teacher Gamaliel.

Yeah...and King Arthur was educated by Merlin and Luke Skywalker by Yoda.

All four have much in common. They are made up bullshit.