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Stupid Vista
#11
RE: Stupid Vista
(October 16, 2008 at 7:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: WTF? I'm ignorant or I'm lying? You arrogant [expletive deleted]!!!!

No Adrian ... I am neither ignorant or lying! I have used MANY distros (would you like me to list them?) and many versions of those distros including Ubuntu & Kubuntu (my favourite being OpenSuSE) and if you know Linux as well as you appear to you will know that it is modular in construction! I'm no expert but as far as I know everything is built around the kernel, the OS built on top of that, the graphics (X11 or Xorg not sure) on top of that and a Window manager (such as Enlightenment, GNOME, KDE, Fluxbox, xcfe) on top of that.
Precisely what I said, thanks for agreeing with me. The kernel is the only part of the system that each distro has in common with each other. The OS is built separately (on top), so is the graphics, so is the Window manager, and every other part of the system. Each distro uses different varieties of each.
(October 16, 2008 at 7:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Way to go to demonstrate your own ignorance!

Ubuntu does yes but not only is Ubuntu available in other forms with other desktops such as Kubuntu which is effectively the same OS but with the KDE window manager but MANY other distros feature GNOME such as Debian (choice between various desktops), Foresight, Mandriva (again a choice), SuSE/OpenSUSE (choice), Gentoo, Red Hat/Fedora and more minor distros as well so basically you're talking crap. Yes I am aware that various distros use varied means of installing software (SuSE uses YaST) but in overall look and feel a Linux distro with an identical desktop manager is much the same as any other.
If you want to class the OS as just the kernel then be my guest, but that is not the official definition of one. This is why any OS that runs Linux as a kernel is correctly referred to as "GNU Linux", the GNU being the collection of software built on top of the kernel to make the system work!

Believe it or not, but Debian is a different OS to something like Fedora or Suse or Gentoo!
(October 16, 2008 at 7:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: And that wasn't the point that I made ... the point I made was that to use Linux EFFECTIVELY you need to know the OS from a more technical POV. I don't deny the essential competency of the OS nor the fact that there are many competent programs available free for Linux but as many are available for Windows and many others are cross-platform (go check Sourceforge.net). A Linux distro, written as is by many disparate individuals, lacks the cohesiveness of Windows and your blithe assurances that the system can be easily configured are not born out by the reality of the support system for Linux ... I know this, I have tried and referred to it earlier.
Certainly OS's like Gentoo need a vast knowledge of systems, but things like Ubuntu do not. I started off using Ubuntu and the applications that come with it are very easy to use and intuitive. To use Ubuntu effectively you do not need to know any more information than you would to use Windows effectively. To use Ubuntu to it's full potential, you need to know quite a bit, but the same can be said for Windows.
(October 16, 2008 at 7:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: And you are talking ancient history ... I don't even know when it was I got my last BSOD, back on NT probably ... XP, 2003 and Vista are all incredibly stable OS's as long as they are run within manufacturer's specifications. They are also exceptionally versatile. Obviously Windows has viruses targeting it ... everyone targets the top dog either for antagonistic reason or because they are only interested in the bigger market.
Ancient history? What about the lovely BSOD we saw at the China games? People are experiencing BSODs still to this day, and Vista is no exception. I used to use Windows XP and it BSODed without fail every time I plugged my webcam in and had it running in Skype (after about 10 minutes of perfectly good use). Linux on the other hand supports all my webcams perfectly well.

You show a distinct ignorance of the Linux system if you think the only reason it doesn't have many viruses is because of popularity. Linux OS's are designed better with much more secure programs, and the permissions system of files means that a user has to give the virus execute permissions before it can be run. If you aren't running as root (which most people do not) then no damage can be done to your system at all other than a virus wiping personal files (which can be done easily on any system). Read this article for more info.
(October 16, 2008 at 7:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Wherever I have heard? Get real ... I'm basing this on MY personal experience e not on rumour and innuendo as you appear to be.

Most commonplace hardware has adequate driver support yes but driver support is nowhere near as good as you claim ... have you ever tried getting some fairly esoteric bit of kit working under Linux or perhaps something that's relatively new on the market? Trust me, I have and getting support for anything like that (especially gaming kit) is an absolute [expletive deleted] under Linux. You'll have noticed I said "adequate" when referring to Linux driver support and there is good reason to do so ... Linux drivers are the equivalent of Windows inbuilt drivers, they work, they’re stable but they're not the best ... the best are (almost without exception) from the manufacture's website and can improve system performance by leaps and bounds and I'm sorry to inform you old chap but most of them don't bother to support Linux, the Linux community must do so (if indeed they do it at all) and the drivers they do come up with, whilst competent, just aren't exceptional in full hardware utilisation terms. If you think I'm wrong ask yourself how varied, say, nVidia video hardware is? Now ask yourself how many varieties of driver there are in the Windows world and how many in the Linux one? Do you wanna know why that is?
I have indeed got latest bits of kit working in Linux. Only a few months back I bought the latest version of a joystick, and guess what? It worked perfectly using a standard driver! The reason there are distinctly less drivers in the Linux world isn't just due to popularity. GNU does not make separate drivers for each single device (as per Windows). Instead, a single driver is made that supports a multitude of drivers (reusing the same code).

I agree though, manufacturers drivers are the best, and you will see that more and more manufacturers are making drivers for Linux, because of the amount of people who are installing Ubuntu and the like.
(October 16, 2008 at 7:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Yes Adrian, the official forums are EXACTLY where I go (and many other places as well) and I am getting just a little bit pissed off with your implied assertions that I don't know how to get support, I'm an ADVANCED IT PROFESIONAL so even if I don't know a specific subject all that well I have a fairly good idea where to go to get the assistance I require!
I apologise that you seem to have not found very good support forums. You speak from experience and so do I. Most people find what they are looking for with support forums, so I'm afraid you are a small statistic. I highly doubt your claim that such support forums simply run away from tough questions, but perhaps you weren't talking to the correct people.
(October 16, 2008 at 7:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: No I don't but I am well aware that the vast majority of recent Windows games DO NOT work under emulation as they address specific OS and hardware aspects that Linux simply does not handle all that well, in addition the fact that one wine group (can't remember it's name) considered it a huge triumph to have gotten Office 2003 or whatever running on Linux is an indicator of just how difficult it can be to get certain Windows programs (and I'm not even talking about games here) running under Linux. And, of course, I could just throw back at you the fact that you can likewise get Linux programs running under Windows using programs like Cygwin. But the point I am making is, whether you like it or not, serious non-console gamers (and games are a major reason for buying a computer even for a family PC) will use Windows, Linux WILL NOT be the first choice and with good reason!
I totally agree that Linux is a stupid choice for a gamer. I never said otherwise. This is the reason I keep Windows installed on my PC in a small partition. As for Office 2003, it was a triumph because people had to get a large number of sub processes working together, instead of a single program on it's own. It took a large amount of work and should be celebrated. Of course, wine shouldn't be used for such things, as Open Office and Abiword are very suitable alternatives to Office. Wine is used mainly in getting programs that can't be ported (such as games) to work in Linux.
Ben Wrote:I think the poor man’s a bit delusional. I have a Linux system. It doesn’t run anywhere near the range of software I need, it is much less stable than my XP box and it’s almost impossible to configure so I’ve left it ‘out of the box’ and restart it any time something changes and I can’t work it again. My XP machine can use my network at home and then if I close the lid for an hour it’ll pick up where it left off. The Linux machine can’t, it doesn’t integrate properly with the hardware (remember this is the OS it was shipped with) so if it is hibernated it can never restore the network when you want to use it again. It can’t even remember the WEP key so I have to add it manually every time. It won’t run the two pieces of software I use the most, even with an emulator, because they need direct access to the web in order to register and the emulators supposedly don’t permit this. All the available open source software is adequate but none of it is the best available and the interface is often a bit weird with things in strange places where you don’t expect.

As a web-browser and occasional WP system it’s fine but don’t confuse it with a computer because it just isn’t one.
I would like to know the precise nature of the "range of software" your friend is trying to run. I am by no means talking about special uses, although Linux is beginning to go that way. I am talking about general use. Sure, there are probably a load of jobs you could do where Linux isn't the best choice (as we have both said, gaming is one), but it is a good choice for general use.

No idea why his laptop lid isn't working, but it works on every installation I have had.

For the WEP key, has he tried using wicd as a network manager? I have no idea why his current manager keeps "forgetting" the key, but wicd is a great choice and works flawlessly for myself. I suggest he tries is.

As for emulators using networks, he is evidently doing something wrong, seeing as they have always been able to use them.

"don’t confuse it with a computer because it just isn’t one"

Of course it isn't a computer. It's an OS.
(October 16, 2008 at 7:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I would also point out one final thing about our "discussion" and that is this:

AH: Ubuntu is magnificent! Windows is crap! Ubuntu is awesome! Windows is crap! Ubuntu! Ubuntu! Ubuntu! Rah! Rah! Rah! Windows is crap!
KYU: Linux is a good OS, so is Windows. Go ahead and try Linux but I suggest try it first before you use it properly so why not virtualise it and find out?

I'm sorry but it seems to me you're acting like a spoiled child, an evangelist upset that someone dared to criticise his latest toy but, as far as I can tell, I'm the one advising caution to someone who is a Windows user, I'm the one being more reasonable.

Kyu
I never said Windows was crap, so don't put words in my mouth please. Windows is fine for a lot of people, and so is Linux. I am presenting the facts though, that Windows is more unstable than Linux, and has more viruses. It is provably less secure.
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#12
RE: Stupid Vista
(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Precisely what I said, thanks for agreeing with me. The kernel is the only part of the system that each distro has in common with each other. The OS is built separately (on top), so is the graphics, so is the Window manager, and every other part of the system. Each distro uses different varieties of each.

I'm not agreeing with you idiot (and since you think acceptable to call me a liar and/or ignorant and refuse to apologise I will no longer going to hide my contempt for a Linux evangelist like you) ... I am essentially saying they are all more-or-less the same, yes they vary in precise details but to the average user (and that IS what we are talking about here) they are pretty much of a muchness.

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: If you want to class the OS as just the kernel then be my guest, but that is not the official definition of one. This is why any OS that runs Linux as a kernel is correctly referred to as "GNU Linux", the GNU being the collection of software built on top of the kernel to make the system work!

I don't!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Believe it or not, but Debian is a different OS to something like Fedora or Suse or Gentoo!

See above!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Certainly OS's like Gentoo need a vast knowledge of systems, but things like Ubuntu do not. I started off using Ubuntu and the applications that come with it are very easy to use and intuitive. To use Ubuntu effectively you do not need to know any more information than you would to use Windows effectively. To use Ubuntu to it's full potential, you need to know quite a bit, but the same can be said for Windows.

And I repeat for the terminally dense ... that WAS NOT the point that I made ... the point I made was that to use Linux EFFECTIVELY you need to know the OS from a more technical POV.

Windows is a far, far more user friendly OS than ANY Linux variant ... despite the whinging of Linux evangelists like you it isn't just the advertising and marketing strategies that's got Windows on 90% of the world's desktops.

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Ancient history? What about the lovely BSOD we saw at the China games? People are experiencing BSODs still to this day, and Vista is no exception. I used to use Windows XP and it BSODed without fail every time I plugged my webcam in and had it running in Skype (after about 10 minutes of perfectly good use). Linux on the other hand supports all my webcams perfectly well.

And what did I say earlier evangelist? I said, " XP, 2003 and Vista are all incredibly stable OS's as long as they are run within manufacturer's specifications." ... you really think that a sodding Hi-Tech computer network in an Olympic stadium is going to be anything approaching "manufacturer's specifications". Do you really think Linux could do any better? Gimme a [expletive deleted] break!!!!!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You show a distinct ignorance of the Linux system if you think the only reason it doesn't have many viruses is because of popularity. Linux OS's are designed better with much more secure programs, and the permissions system of files means that a user has to give the virus execute permissions before it can be run. If you aren't running as root (which most people do not) then no damage can be done to your system at all other than a virus wiping personal files (which can be done easily on any system).

And I stick to my point on this one ... the primary reason Windows systems are targeted is because they represent a much bigger target and because of user ignorance! When you have worked in IT as long as I have you will know that this is true.

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Read this article for more info

Just someone else's opinion, here's another:
http://www.virusbtn.com/news/2003/10_06_virus.xml

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I have indeed got latest bits of kit working in Linux. Only a few months back I bought the latest version of a joystick, and guess what? It worked perfectly using a standard driver! The reason there are distinctly less drivers in the Linux world isn't just due to popularity. GNU does not make separate drivers for each single device (as per Windows). Instead, a single driver is made that supports a multitude of drivers (reusing the same code).

Try getting a Saitek GM3200 gaming mouse working under OpenSUSE linux! Try getting onboard RAID working under virtually any version of Linux but more to the point try getting any of this kind of support done easily ... Windows stuff just tends to work out of the box!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I agree though, manufacturers drivers are the best, and you will see that more and more manufacturers are making drivers for Linux, because of the amount of people who are installing Ubuntu and the like.

I'd wanna see figures in support of that assertion before I accept them ... you know ... lies, damned lies and evangelists!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I apologise that you seem to have not found very good support forums. You speak from experience and so do I. Most people find what they are looking for with support forums, so I'm afraid you are a small statistic. I highly doubt your claim that such support forums simply run away from tough questions, but perhaps you weren't talking to the correct people.

First you apologise then pretty much criticise me with a veiled version of the same accusation! Based on the forums I've surveyed whilst there, no, I do not accept that I am a small statistic ... I believe I am a common problem and given your evangelistic nature I'm hardly going to accept such blithe statement from someone like you am I?

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I totally agree that Linux is a stupid choice for a gamer. I never said otherwise. This is the reason I keep Windows installed on my PC in a small partition. As for Office 2003, it was a triumph because people had to get a large number of sub processes working together, instead of a single program on it's own. It took a large amount of work and should be celebrated. Of course, wine shouldn't be used for such things, as Open Office and Abiword are very suitable alternatives to Office. Wine is used mainly in getting programs that can't be ported (such as games) to work in Linux.

No you never said it but the implication was pretty damned strong!!!

Oh! You use Windows? Typical! Just like every time you really need to do something you need Windows. You know as a server engineer I often see people make the same dumb claims you do and yet time, after time, after time I see the same thing ... someone sets up a network or cluster of Linux machines to do something and I assume it does it quite well but you can bet that there will ALWAYS be something (monitoring, reporting, configuring ... I don't know just something) they will ALWAYS need a Windows machine tucked embarrassingly away in a corner somewhere. It's laughable, quite frankly weighed up against your diatribe it's pathetic!!!!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I would like to know the precise nature of the "range of software" your friend is trying to run. I am by no means talking about special uses, although Linux is beginning to go that way. I am talking about general use. Sure, there are probably a load of jobs you could do where Linux isn't the best choice (as we have both said, gaming is one), but it is a good choice for general use.

It's an ASUS EEE PC I believe and like I say, as far as I can tell you're just another Linux evangelist who wouldn't admit anything was wrong with his precious OS unless he was repeatedly hit around the head with a dead kipper. Me? I use Windows because it works most of the time, properly maintained it has few issues, it does everything I ask of it without problem or complaint but take note ... I'm not naïve enough to claim it is the best damned OS evearrr! Windows is a competent OS, it has problems (every OS does), Linux is a competent OS, it has problems (undoubtedly different from Windows but it still has them), MAC OS-X is a competent OS, it also has its own problems.

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: No idea why his laptop lid isn't working, but it works on every installation I have had.

Have you thought that it might be because Linux is not quite the oh-so-friendly OS you've been trying to claim it is? No, of course you haven't!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: For the WEP key, has he tried using wicd as a network manager? I have no idea why his current manager keeps "forgetting" the key, but wicd is a great choice and works flawlessly for myself. I suggest he tries is.

Suggest what you like, as I said earlier he's an ADVANCED IT PROFESSIONAL so I don't think I'll be passing him that suggestion. Thanks anyway though ... big of you! No really, it was!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: As for emulators using networks, he is evidently doing something wrong, seeing as they have always been able to use them.

Oh of course he is, he's a smart highly technically trained individual with an ability to solve multiple problems each and every day for thousands of individuals and hundreds of servers and PC's under his care .. yet strangely he falls to pieces the moment he touches a Linux machine! I mean, would you credit it, really (no really) would you credit that?
(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Of course it isn't a computer. It's an OS.

He was being sarcastic you twit!

(October 16, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I never said Windows was crap, so don't put words in my mouth please. Windows is fine for a lot of people, and so is Linux. I am presenting the facts though, that Windows is more unstable than Linux, and has more viruses. It is provably less secure.

And your remark, "As for usability, Windows has always been more unstable, with BSOD's and viruses at every turn" says? Effectively that Windows is crap!

This is a thread meant to help someone who was experiencing problems with the Vista OS and, I'm sorry, I must have mistaken your two comments to the user in question ...
Quote:Comment 1: "Go Ubuntu"
Comment 2: "And here's how you say it"
... for something other than factual presentation! Whilst I suppose telling someone how to say a particular word could be interpreted as helpful I've obviously been very silly! Silly me! Silly, silly me!!! I must flagellate myself when I get home!!!

Yeah! Go team Linux, Go team Linux, Go team Linux! Hoorah Go Ubuntu!!!

Kyu
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#13
RE: Stupid Vista
'Stupid vista' sure causes 'stupid arguments' lol.
Reply
#14
RE: Stupid Vista
Indeed, especially when you pit one obvious Windows fanboy who can't take criticism with myself, who appreciates that Linux isn't for absolutely everybody but is a very stable system that people should try.

Oh, and since you seem to think it's great for your ego to call in your IT buddies, I've shown these posts to me Computer Science buddies, and they all think your arguments are hilarious. Of course, I don't claim that this means anything because I don't like to use logical fallacies. (Just so you know)

If your friend doesn't want to install wicd to help him then that's his decision. Point to note though: I visited my mother today after several months and wicd found the wireless network and remembered the key, even though it hadn't asked to save it or indeed had seen the network in months. I call that a pretty clever program. Hope your friend enjoys entering the key every time though, I do feel ever so sorry for him.
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#15
RE: Stupid Vista
Bloody hell. I feel I should be pointing out the points on which you have both been wrong however im not going to out of the fear that I might have my head bitten off.

I will say this: when someone asks for help with their computer (or anything else for that matter) these sorts of arguments are not helpful. We should be talking about how we can resolve the problem Darwinian has with Vista. Linux shouldn't have even have been brought up in this thread, its simply not the place.

EDIT: Darwinian, have you fixed the problem? If so what was wrong?
Hoi Zaeme.
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#16
RE: Stupid Vista
Linux and Windows are not as bad as religion. I don't think there will ever be a war fought over them, other than "Int3rw3bz fl4m3 w4rs." But I could be wrong.

Meanwhile, I too want to hear from Darwinian. Any progress?
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#17
RE: Stupid Vista
Big Grin

Yes thanks. I switched off the User Account Control, told it to stop nagging me that I had done that and now it does pretty much what I tell it to..

Thanks for remembering me Wink
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#18
RE: Stupid Vista
Thats cool. I found a tool called vLite which respins vista install discs. I used it to completely remove that "feature" along with a few other allegedly un(re?)movable bits before installing the system. Though I suppose that wouldnt have gotten in my way anyway since I just use the admin account on vista anyway. XD

EDIT: how exactly did you turn it off? I've seen a lot of posts around the net saying people turned UAC off but if I ever had to do it myself i wouldn't know where to begin.
Hoi Zaeme.
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#19
RE: Stupid Vista
Simply go into the User Accounts in Control Panel and take it from there..
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#20
RE: Stupid Vista
(October 19, 2008 at 1:06 pm)rjh Wrote: Linux shouldn't have even have been brought up in this thread, its simply not the place.
I only did it for a joke, and then a Windows moron turned up and started spouting nonsense.
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