The Men's Rights Movement: I Just Don't Get It.

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My apologies, it certainly wasn't meant that way. There's just no sexual element in that situation which can make such friendships fun. But don't pretend you don't act different around a potential mate. Everyone does, not just me. Tbh, I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from with this.

What you are saying is that with straight and bisexual women you have to put on a façade, that you believe it is normal for you to be fundamentally dishonest with straight and bisexual women. That you do not trust them or yourself enough to just be yourself. You have targeted a certain group of people to be dishonest with.

That is not only misogynistic but I could see it as self-loathing and misandristic.

Everyone does. Its just part of being human. I think its probably just best to agree to disagree because I don't see anything productive coming out of this discussion.

[Bipolar Bob]

MEN send men to war.(partial quote)

I'm calling bullshit on that. I agree with pretty much everything else in your post, but I can't let that pass without comment. 
The notion that if the world was ruled by women then there would be no war is absolute shite. Even a brief web search will tell that.
Here's a brief list of female leaders that sent troops to war:

• Margaret thatcher
• Indira Gandhi
• Mary I of England
• Elizabeth I of England
• Isabella I of Castile
• Golda Meir

I think that'll do for now.

And all those women derived their authority from the male hierarchy. Thatcher, Gandhi and Meir were all very conservative, part of the establish order and maintained the status quo. Elizabeth, Mary and Isabella all derived their authority through patrilineal descent...

[Zazzy]

This has never been women against men, I have never made that claim. I have not been trying to argue for who carries the blame of male oppression, just that there is male oppression. But again that you think that that is the point I am trying to make is indicative of part of the problem I am talking about. I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just trying to show you the thought process being made here. I have never once blamed the problems men have on woman at all in any of my posts.

Call me crazy, but this quote:

Personally, I think the main reason for this is because we used to be the oppressors. But we are not anymore and have not for a few generations, save for a few assholes. And there is this idea that it is
impossible for the previous oppressor to become the oppressed.

certainly implies that women have turned the tables on men and now oppress them. If this is not what you meant to imply, then of course I retract any comments to that effect.

But because I am saying that men aren't afforded certain rights equal to
those of women, it is immediately thought that I am somehow trying to blame women or devalue the rights and progress that they have made. I want women to be afforded their human rights as well as men.

It would be easier to give me one issue to start with that you think women are afforded that men are not.

The oppression of women was and is not as simple as just men oppressing women. Women oppressed other women as well, hell even today there are women that are pro-life and believe that it is a woman's duty to serve her husband and raise the children. And we have a similar scenario with men. I'm not blaming you for it, I'm just asking that you recognize it and help us rather than remaining ignorant to the problems we face.

What makes you think I don't work for it? I've worked my tail off educating young men about their predicament with birth control. I'm just not buying that men are, as a group, oppressed. Perhaps there are class elements to your argument that you're not elucidating, but I am related to some of most rich white male elitist assholes ever, and I'll tell you that they're not oppressed- at all (unless you count their whining about getting their millions taxed as oppression).

Each culture has adopted gender roles that we end up blindly following and blindly expect from the opposite. One of our biggest problems as men when it comes to our gender role, is that our lives are considered expendable in comparison to women. Like I mentioned previously 99% of casualties of war since the start of civilization have been men and the United States conscription policy still requires that only men register. That is a huge inequality, and an oppressive policy. It is a "men only" specific rule that directly effects our survival. World War II was not just a holocaust for Jews it was a holocaust for men as well. Pretty much every war is a holocaust for men. We go to kill other men and be killed by other men. But it is not thought of in those terms. Because after all, men go to war.

OK. This is specific and is a valid complaint. Most people I know think the draft is pure BS- and anyway, in the US I don't think it would fly anymore. You've got a beef with the warpigs of the US government, and it's a clear gender disparity. Are men at large being oppressed by the US government right now? Modern war has been fought mostly by our poorer classes (college boys get out of it). Is it a gender oppression, or a class oppression? I have to think about it. And unless you have been forced to go to war, are you oppressed?
As to my earlier dismissal of you, I thought you were claiming that women were oppressing men (and re-reading your post, I STILL think it reads like that). That's an asinine claim which I wasn't going to argue with you about, as I said. If it's one you don't hold, then this misunderstanding has been resolved.

As to high risk jobs: that's a class issue, too. Women work in high-risk factory jobs ALL THE TIME. Poor people are forced to do dangerous shit work.

Even as progress for women has been made (which I'm all for) progress for men has remained stagnant. Women can now work in what would be considered traditionally male careers.

Getting there. Still a LONG way to go.

But how many men do you see working in early childcare, or become stay at home dads while the woman works? Not too many, because although women have been supported to venture into those non-traditional careers, men are still being shunned to do the same.

Well, I personally know several men who were stay-at-home dads. It's harder for men to do it because they don't have milk-filled breasts. That's not oppression, it's biology. And I have never seen any men at any level of education mocked. Fewer men go into K-12 education, period (partly because it used to be female-associated, but more often now because of the shitty pay)- although that's changing rapidly. My niece's pre-K teacher was a man, and he rocked.

I just don't think this is true. As soon as men starting doing these things, it opened the way for more men. It's a movement that has already happened- and there's no oppression involved. Schools are DESPERATE, for example, for more black male teachers. They recruit like hell to get them. The guys just aren't entering the field in large numbers, even though they are heroes when they do.

And you're dead wrong (although I appreciate your confining this to Western culture). Are men less oppressive than they used to be? Yes, and they're far more enlightened in the educated areas of the US. But if you're saying that men don't oppress women anymore, or that women have turned the tables and now oppress men, you're just wrong. Women should NOT turn a blind eye to inequities in media portrayals, or reproductive issues, or war issues. But they are not responsible for these as a group systematically trying to keep men down.

The average man does not keep a woman down anymore. Like I said, there are still a few assholes out there and yes, some of them may be in positions of power.

There are more than a few assholes out there. Even though shelters for domestic violence victims now are very welcoming of men, the vast majority of their customers are women. Why?

Again, it's not a competition, but you are callously under- and mis- representing the huge problem of male-on-female violence, which is still a VERY big problem everywhere in the world. Just because you're a nice guy with nice friends does NOT mean that women don't get kept down all the time. Try looking at WHO's statistics for worldwide violence against women.

But your run of the mill Joe Everyman is compassionate to the rights and thoughts of women.

This is naive as hell. If one in 3-4 women is being raped in her lifetime, what does that say about the number of men raping? Is it a handful of bad guys doing all that raping? Nope. If you keep claiming this, we're going to continue to clash.

Do you seriously realize how close minded that statement is? I understand that quite a few of the problems men face are in fact perpetuated by men, but real change cannot take place until the whole of society recognizes the problem and acts together.

I believe I DID say that women should help. But the primary thing that pushed feminism forward was women taking responsibility for their own roles in their subjection and quitting that behavior. Men have to do that. Can women help? Yes, of course.

Women could not rise like they did by themselves, it required the help of everyone, men included. And now men face difficulty when it comes to certain rights and cultural attitudes and we also need the help of everyone, women included. Are you really going to turn your back on us?

So far, the only thing I've been convinced is a real issue here is the war issue- something I'd be happy to sign petitions about to end the forced conscription of men. Will I take to the streets for it? My chosen battle for boys and men (and girls and women) is birth control.

Again, part of any movement like this is learning how your own group is participating in its own subjection and rejecting those tendencies- like bra-burning.

Then what are you arguing with the MRM for? This is exactly what they are doing!

How are you doing this? I haven't seen this from you yet. I wasn't arguing with MRM, because I don't know anything about their official goals or policies. I was arguing with YOU.

All I have been arguing for, is that just like there are ways in which women are slighted there are ways that men are slighted as well. I am not trying to say women are the reason for that or even that we have more problems then women. Just that we got problems too.

That isn't all you're arguing here, but I'm glad to see your main point distilled to this. It's undeniably true.

Because like I stated in my first post on this thread, if a man advocates for his rights or speaks his mind on any inequality he feels that he faces, our society dictates that he must then hate women.

Now you're putting words in MY mouth. Where did I say you hate women? I think your stance on the "average nice guy joe" is terribly naive, but not hateful.

[Doubting Thomas]

October is breast cancer awareness month. Anyone know which month is prostate cancer awareness month offhand?

Proctober?

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

[Bipolar Bob]

This has never been women against men, I have never made that claim. I have not been trying to argue for who carries the blame of male oppression, just that there is male oppression.

Men are oppressed, I will agree with that but are they oppressed for being male. Men are oppressed within the economic class they belong to. If you are a white male but poor, you are going to be oppressed, if you are a black male but rich, you are not going to experience all that much oppression. If you are a black male but poor, you are going to experience a lot more oppression than a poor white male but still they are both going to be oppressed by virtue of their economic status.

That being said, men have never been oppressed because of their gender, women have historically been oppressed since the advent of the damn wheel for just being women.

*Edited because of my dyslexia

[Zazzy]

[Bad Wolf]

This is naive as hell. If one in 3-4 women is being raped in her lifetime, what does that say about the number of men raping? Is it a handful of bad guys doing all that raping? Nope. If you keep claiming this, we're going to continue to clash.

Yes it is a handful of bad guys. I don't think you are taking into account that one guy can rape more than one girl.

[freedomfromforum]