The Men's Rights Movement: I Just Don't Get It.

[Lemonvariable72]

@Zazzy
I'm sorry but your assertion that women are somehow less violent then men is bunk. While women do have lower violent crime statistics what I would invite you to do is talk to a local high school princple. My experience is that girls tend to as much as boys do.

I was a public high school teacher for 10+ years, and I've been working in public high schools off and on for the past 6+ years during grad school, and that's total BS (unless you're in a gang school, and then it's just BS and not TOTAL BS). Girls fight NOWHERE NEAR as much as boys do.

Infact when girls would fight, it had a tendency to get more viscious faster .

This may be true, but since they physically fight way less, it's a moot point.

The reason for that is because when men fight one on one there are rules your expected to adhere too.

That's not a sexist statement or anything.

I want to say this, my evidence is only anecdotal and based in personal experience, where as yours is backed up via statistical analysis, and I am of course human.
My two cents is this. This Mens rights is a conservation that needs to be had openly, without people screaming patriarchy, as it is right now women hold a substantial advantage over men in courts both criminal and civil. This has to be addressed as do health issues specific to men. And please stop painting all men as rapists, when in reality it is a very small percentage of men.

[Darth]

Just do the math. 1 out every 4 women as experienced a form of sexual assault. And 1 out of 65 males have experienced either an attempted rape or a completed rape by another male. So that handful of bad guys must be awfully busy or we have a problem.

And by the way, the stats stating the males may be a fifth of rape victims may be underestimated, because male victims are less likely to acknowledge or admit have have been sexually assaulted.

This is naive as hell. If one in 3-4 women is being raped in her lifetime, what does that say about the number of men raping? Is it a handful of bad guys doing all that raping? Nope. If you keep claiming this, we're going to continue to clash.

Zazzy and Bipolar, I want the citations to back up these claims. The stats you did link to, the FBI ones, paint a very different picture. Just do the math you say bipolar? Rightio:

From the FBI:
One forcible rape every 6.3 minutes in 2001 in the US. That's a busy handful of guys. I guess at about 10 rapes a day a handful of guys in every city could manage it.

Round it down to 6 mins (making it more frequent rather than less), to make the math easier. One rape every 6 mins, or 10 rapes every 60 mins, 10 an hour.

10x24 = 240 a day
240x365 = 87,600 a year

There are 313,900,000 people in the US (huh, I thought it was more like 360 millionish), according to google. Assuming an exactly 50/50 split that's 156.95 million women.

Assuming a life expectancy of 81 for females
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_03.pdf

And then assuming that each victim is a new victim, who has never before been raped, making this this highest possible estimate.

Average life expectancy x rapes a year, 7,095,600
81x87,600 = 7,095,600 over the course of a lifetime.

With only women being forcibly raped*:
100/156.95 million women x the 7.1 million victims = 4.52 %
Or, rather than it being one in 3-4, it's less than one in 20. And that's being as generous as I can possibly be, with no repeat victims and a slightly higher rate to make the math easier, with failed attempts included (but with some forms of statutory rape excluded)

Bullshit "rape culture" stats imo.

Now, I will note that bipolar said a form of sexual assault, Zazzy, you implied it was 1 in 3-4 that would be raped. That's the stat I hear thrown around as well. Doing the math on the FBI stats you provided would indicate otherwise however.




(edited to move this section out, keep all the maths together)
*Why assume all these "forcible rapes" are on females? Well if we go to if we go to http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...cible-rape we find that their definition for forcible rape is as follows:

Forcible rape, as defined in the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, is the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Attempts or assaults to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded.

So this stat excludes statutory rape (if there is no force) but includes attempts and assaults that don't result in a rape, despite that rapist's attempts.

Sexual attacks on males are counted as aggravated assaults or sex offenses, depending on the circumstances and the extent of any injuries.

Wow, maybe the mens rights people have more of a point than I thought, holy shit. I literally cannot believe this, I wanted the defintion of what they were calling forcible rape in those stats you linked, thinking that it would be excluding some types as it wasn't simply called "rape", wasn't expecting this...


Edit 2: more relevant stuff from the fbi site http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...cible-rape on the stats and definition

For this overview only, the FBI deviated from standard procedure and manually calculated the 2010 and 2011 rates of females raped based on the national female population provided by the U.S. Census Bureau.

There were an estimated 83,425 forcible rapes reported to law enforcement in 2011. This estimate was 2.5 percent lower than the 2010 estimate and 9.5 percent and 12.4 percent lower than the 2007 and 2002 estimates, respectively. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)

The rate of forcible rapes in 2011 was estimated at 52.7 per 100,000 female inhabitants.

Rapes by force comprised 93.0 percent of reported rape offenses in 2011, and attempts or assaults to commit rape accounted for 7.0 percent of reported rapes. (Based on Table 19.)

Which matches my maths fairly closely.

[Lemonvariable72]

Just do the math. 1 out every 4 women as experienced a form of sexual assault. And 1 out of 65 males have experienced either an attempted rape or a completed rape by another male. So that handful of bad guys must be awfully busy or we have a problem.

And by the way, the stats stating the males may be a fifth of rape victims may be underestimated, because male victims are less likely to acknowledge or admit have have been sexually assaulted.

This is naive as hell. If one in 3-4 women is being raped in her lifetime, what does that say about the number of men raping? Is it a handful of bad guys doing all that raping? Nope. If you keep claiming this, we're going to continue to clash.

Zazzy and Bipolar, I want the citations to back up these claims. The stats you did link to, the FBI ones, paint a very different picture. Just do the math you say bipolar? Rightio:

From the FBI:
One forcible rape every 6.3 minutes in 2001 in the US. That's a busy handful of guys. I guess at about 10 rapes a day a handful of guys in every city could manage it.

Round it down to 6 mins (making it more frequent rather than less), to make the math easier. One rape every 6 mins, or 10 rapes every 60 mins, 10 an hour.

10x24 = 240 a day
240x365 = 87,600 a year

There are 313,900,000 people in the US (huh, I thought it was more like 360 millionish), according to google. Assuming an exactly 50/50 split that's 156.95 million women.

Assuming a life expectancy of 81 for females
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_03.pdf


And then assuming that each victim is a new victim, who has never before been raped, making this this highest possible estimate.

Average life expectancy x rapes a year, 7,095,600
81x87,600 = 7,095,600 over the course of a lifetime.

With only women being forcibly raped*:
100/156.95 million women x the 7.1 million victims = 4.52 %
Or, rather than it being one in 3-4, it's less than one in 20. And that's being as generous as I can possibly be, with no repeat victims and a slightly higher rate to make the math easier, with failed attempts included (but with some forms of statutory rape excluded)

Bullshit "rape culture" stats imo.

Now, I will note that bipolar said a form of sexual assault, Zazzy, you implied it was 1 in 3-4 that would be raped. That's the stat I hear thrown around as well. Doing the math on the FBI stats you provided would indicate otherwise however.




(edited to move this section out, keep all the maths together)
*Why assume all these "forcible rapes" are on females? Well if we go to if we go to http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...cible-rape we find that their definition for forcible rape is as follows:

Forcible rape, as defined in the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, is the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Attempts or assaults to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded.

So this stat excludes statutory rape (if there is no force) but includes attempts and assaults that don't result in a rape, despite that rapist's attempts.

Sexual attacks on males are counted as aggravated assaults or sex offenses, depending on the circumstances and the extent of any injuries.

Wow, maybe the mens rights people have more of a point than I thought, holy shit. I literally cannot believe this, I wanted the defintion of what they were calling forcible rape in those stats you linked, thinking that it would be excluding some types as it wasn't simply called "rape", wasn't expecting this...


Edit 2: more relevant stuff from the fbi site http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...cible-rape on the stats and definition

For this overview only, the FBI deviated from standard procedure and manually calculated the 2010 and 2011 rates of females raped based on the national female population provided by the U.S. Census Bureau.

There were an estimated 83,425 forcible rapes reported to law enforcement in 2011. This estimate was 2.5 percent lower than the 2010 estimate and 9.5 percent and 12.4 percent lower than the 2007 and 2002 estimates, respectively. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)

The rate of forcible rapes in 2011 was estimated at 52.7 per 100,000 female inhabitants.

Rapes by force comprised 93.0 percent of reported rape offenses in 2011, and attempts or assaults to commit rape accounted for 7.0 percent of reported rapes. (Based on Table 19.)

Which matches my maths fairly closely.

Something else I want to point out here. Most of thos statistics use the definition of sexual assualt, not rape. So while sexual assualt mean rape, it can mean a host of other things as well.

Sexual assault is any involuntary sexual act in which a person is threatened, coerced, or forced to engage against their will, or any sexual touching of a person who has not consented. This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration), groping, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the victim in a sexual manner

And in the case of america You have to account for problematic age of consent laws as well.

[LastPoet]

Oh look! Another thread discussing sexism ending in a thread about rape. Never saw that before[/sarcasm]

Gentlemen and gentlewomen, place your bets on how much time untill this bunch of apes start flinging shit at eachother and the mods are forced to lock the thread!

[Darth]

Actually it was first mentioned in the OP

You'll also note that this thread was godwin'd spectacularly quickly, also in the OP.

[FlyingNarwhal]

This has never been women against men, I have never made that claim. I have not been trying to argue for who carries the blame of male oppression, just that there is male oppression. But again that you think that that is the point I am trying to make is indicative of part of the problem I am talking about. I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just trying to show you the thought process being made here. I have never once blamed the problems men have on woman at all in any of my posts.

Call me crazy, but this quote:

Personally, I think the main reason for this is because we used to be the oppressors. But we are not anymore and have not for a few generations, save for a few assholes. And there is this idea that it is
impossible for the previous oppressor to become the oppressed.

certainly implies that women have turned the tables on men and now oppress them. If this is not what you meant to imply, then of course I retract any comments to that effect.

This wasn't about women oppressing men. It was about how I feel as though most people do not believe that a group that was previously an oppressor can become oppressed themselves.

It would be easier to give me one issue to start with that you think women are afforded that men are not.

There are so many that have already been mentioned here. For one as I already mentioned the fact that it has been primarily men that have fought and died in all of history's wars, women have been spared this. Also again, previously mentioned, the conscription policy If I accidentally get a woman pregnant and don't want to have a child I am forced to be a legal guardian and to pay for the child, yet a woman has complete control over her own destiny in regards to whether or not she wants to have a child and subsequently pay for it. If I marry a woman and we later divorce, she is entitled to half of my money and even possibly alimony, yet it is much harder for me to get the same deal. Also if I have a child with that woman I divorced, she almost always gets custody and gets to choose the days that I get visitation, and on top of it the man is usually required to pick the child up meaning I have to incur whatever travel expenses that entails and if I don't have a viable for of transportation I may not get to see my kids. Also as I mentioned in my first post when I was talking about my father's divorce fiasco, if I fail to make one payment (despite a record of previous on time payments) my accounts can be frozen. If I am not able to make enough money to pay my child support I can then be thrown in prison where, get this, I have to pay the child support that built up while I was in prison! Speaking of prison, men are consistently given harsher sentences than woman. There are so many to choose from.

What makes you think I don't work for it? I've worked my tail off educating young men about their predicament with birth control. I'm just not buying that men are, as a group, oppressed.

I am curious, what would it take for you to think that men are in fact oppressed?

EDIT: We are routinely and ritualistically sent to our deaths at every war. Just in the short history of the United States we have been at war for almost every single year with the exception of about 15 years. War is constantly occurring worldwide. What other group is sacrificed in such a manner? The facts about men and war should alone justify being called an oppressed group. We march to our deaths every year.

Perhaps there are class elements to your argument that you're not elucidating, but I am related to some of most rich white male elitist assholes ever, and I'll tell you that they're not oppressed- at all (unless you count their whining about getting their millions taxed as oppression).

Class effects everything of course, but most of these problems can come in to contact with any man. Hell some of them can actually get worse in your higher classes as well. If a man with $100 million dollars gets divorced his ex-wife gets $50 million. Then she can get alimony, and especially with these rich guys that alimony can be very expensive because they may have to pay her enough so she can "live according to the means you are accustomed to." And again with the child support if there were children involved a man has to pay even more. The end result being if your a rich man getting a divorce it can end up being extremely expensive.

EDIT: And if I go broke, I still gotta pay out that huge alimony.

OK. This is specific and is a valid complaint. Most people I know think the draft is pure BS- and anyway, in the US I don't think it would fly anymore. You've got a beef with the warpigs of the US government, and it's a clear gender disparity. Are men at large being oppressed by the US government right now? Modern war has been fought mostly by our poorer classes (college boys get out of it). Is it a gender oppression, or a class oppression? I have to think about it. And unless you have been forced to go to war, are you oppressed?

It's not just poorer classes, it is also the middle class as well. Our conscription policy is a lot more sinister then it already seems. First off it is oppression even if I don't go to war because my hand is forced. If I don't register for the draft I don't get certain federal benefits. I can't get any federal job if I am not registered for the draft and some states have adopted this policy as well. They just won't hire you. Some states also won't issue you a driver's license if you are not registered. I can't receive any federal loans either. If I need a federal loan to buy a house, too bad. Same goes for federal student loans as well, if I'm not registered I don't get them. And surprise! Some states will also not give loans to non-registered men. And if you are a man coming from another country that is looking to become a United States citizen, guess what you are required to do to become a citizen? Sign up for the draft. Signing up for the draft is literally like making a deal with the devil. If I don't do it, it severely limits my options in my life. And if I do sign it I get those benefits, but I may have to go to war. I have to sign my life over to my government for the same rights afforded to women.

And further (the evil conscription policy becomes more evil) do not be fooled into thinking that college men can stay safe in college if the draft is enacted. Being able to stay in college was the rule before the Vietnam War and even then it had a hidden dagger. Most men take student loans to afford college, and so before the Vietnam War men would purposefully stay in school and further put themselves in debt to avoid being drafted. However now current policy says that a college male can finish his semester (or a senior can finish the year) but after that they are off to war. Essentially if you are a freshman in college now and the draft is enacted, you only get to stay till the end of the fall semester. You don't get to finish your degree. This was due to outcries that the higher class students were being protected from the draft.

As to my earlier dismissal of you, I thought you were claiming that women were oppressing men (and re-reading your post, I STILL think it reads like that). That's an asinine claim which I wasn't going to argue with you about, as I said. If it's one you don't hold, then this misunderstanding has been resolved.

I can assure you I was not ever trying to make that claim. Men are oppressed by the gender roles assigned by all of society, not just women.

As to high risk jobs: that's a class issue, too. Women work in high-risk factory jobs ALL THE TIME. Poor people are forced to do dangerous shit work.

Yes women work in high risk jobs now. But not at that rate that men do. Men still consistently work in careers that put them at a higher risk for physical harm and death.

Well, I personally know several men who were stay-at-home dads. It's harder for men to do it because they don't have milk-filled breasts. That's not oppression, it's biology. And I have never seen any men at any level of education mocked. Fewer men go into K-12 education, period (partly because it used to be female-associated, but more often now because of the shitty pay)- although that's changing rapidly. My niece's pre-K teacher was a man, and he rocked.

But men that are stay at home dads are still looked down upon by a large portion of our society. A lot of people still believe that a man should provide, and when he fails to do so he is seen as a failure. It's not that we can't be stay at home dads, it's that we are perceived as failed men if we do so.

As far as educational jobs are concerned men have really made progress. But we are given second glances if we take positions working with younger children. This is also an issue for women as well, because it is expected that women are "supposed to be" good with young children while it is expected that men are not.

Again, it's not a competition, but you are callously under- and mis- representing the huge problem of male-on-female violence, which is still a VERY big problem everywhere in the world. Just because you're a nice guy with nice friends does NOT mean that women don't get kept down all the time. Try looking at WHO's statistics for worldwide violence against women.

Yes, male-on-female violence is definitely a problem. But again, I'm talking Western culture. Your average man in a first world country is not beating women on the daily.

This is naive as hell. If one in 3-4 women is being raped in her lifetime, what does that say about the number of men raping? Is it a handful of bad guys doing all that raping? Nope. If you keep claiming this, we're going to continue to clash.

Fortunately I know about that statistic, unfortunately we are going to continue to clash it appears. That statistic is misleading because you really have to look at the question that was asked. Plus I have also seen varying percentages quoted.

Now I prefer to go with RAINN's data, I'm not sure where you got yours from but I consider them to be a good source for this.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sta...lt-victims

Now they say one out of six women have experienced rape on RAINN's site, but again you have to look at the question that was asked. They asked the women if they had experienced rape in their lifetime, which means that child abuse is being included in this percentage. The link I provided also shows that about 50% of these assaults happen while these women are minors. Not to say that those aren't horrible, but I consider child abuse separate from rape regardless of gender. They are separate problems involving separate types of offenders. A pedophile is targeting specifically children, where as a rapist targets women. So what you essentially get is 1 out of 12 women that are 18 or older experiencing rape, which is still a scary number.

However if you think that there is a large portion of men that are rapists then I think it is you who is being callous. Your statement seems to imply that you think that the amount of male rapists is at or close to the amount of women that you believe are being raped (1 out of 4). So do you think it is 1 out of 4 men? 1 out of 8? Out of 16? What percentage of men do you really think are out there raping women? You are severely underestimating men and making us out to be evil.

So far, the only thing I've been convinced is a real issue here is the war issue- something I'd be happy to sign petitions about to end the forced conscription of men. Will I take to the streets for it? My chosen battle for boys and men (and girls and women) is birth control.

I've listed plenty of other "real" issues for you in this post, I really hope you reconsider.

Now you're putting words in MY mouth. Where did I say you hate women? I think your stance on the "average nice guy joe" is terribly naive, but not hateful.

It was the being told four times that I blame women for the oppression of men when I didn't do so that led me to that conclusion.

---

Also Stue got to it before me, but it is in fact true that the FBI's definition of forcible rape does not include men. Just another reason.

[Tiberius]

Stue Denim wins the thread for actually bothering to read the sources flying around and do the math.

[Zazzy]

I take issue with what you are saying zazzy, because it sounds to me like you are implying that most men are rapists

Well, there is a large area between "a handful of men" and "most men." I think pointing out that more men than "a handful" commit rapes is not implying that "most men" do.
@ StueDenim:
Thanks for doing the math. I think the FBI stats are based on arrests, and many rapes and sexual assaults are never reported (see stats below), or no one is ever arrested for them. The 1 in 3-4 stat (along with about a 1 in 6 stat for men) comes from rape crisis centers, who collect data from schools and colleges periodically, and it does includes sexual assault. The most recent study I could find says 1 in 7 women will be actually raped over their lifetimes, and that only 11.5% of victims reported it, which makes the FBI stats sadly low.
Studies of perpetrators say this:

•Surveys have consistently reported that college men acknowledged forced intercourse at a rate of 5-15% and college sexual aggression at a rate of 15-25% (Koss, Gidycz, and Wisniewski, 1987; Malamuth, Sockloskie, Koss, and Tanaka, 1991).

From: http://sapac.umich.edu/article/196

And this more recent study has 26.6% of college men admitting to perpetration of actual rape.
What's scary about these stat is that this is men who will admit it. If it's as low as 5%, great. If it's as high as 15%, that's not so great- and certainly not "a handful" of men. If it's as high as 26% in college, that's just fucking alarming.

Bullshit "rape culture" stats imo.

The stats above don't support that analysis.

What IS clear is that the only really available groups for statistics are high school kids, college kids, and rape crisis center victims. I would assume (hope) that the rate goes down after college, but it seems that among college age boys, this behavior is not rare. We can only know about older men from FBI stats, which of course can only take into account what is reported, and if the 11.5% stat hold true throughout women's lives, it would appear that I was wrong to post the FBI stats in the first place, since 11.5% of the data isn't terribly useful.

*Why assume all these "forcible rapes" are on females?

I never did this. Rape crisis stats pretty consistently say that 1 in 6 men under 20 (again, the only easy group to gather data on) have been sexually assaulted in some way- and also that men are even LESS likely than women to report it.

I have NEVER made an argument that dismisses the sexual assault of men. I have said several times in this thread that it's a terrible issue that so many men are assaulted/raped and that our society treats this like a joke. It's a genuine men's issue that women should (and are, apparently, since every rape crisis website I looked at had resources and stats for men) taking on.

Sexual attacks on males are counted as aggravated assaults or sex offenses, depending on the circumstances and the extent of any injuries.

This is horrible. I wonder if the victims themselves would prefer a label of "aggravated assault," or if it's a police/DA decision.

There were an estimated 83,425 forcible rapes reported to law enforcement in 2011. This estimate was 2.5 percent lower than the 2010 estimate and 9.5 percent and 12.4 percent lower than the 2007 and 2002 estimates, respectively. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)

I also saw on several rape info sites that rates of rape and sexual assault have been decreasing. That is wonderful.

Again, thanks for doing the math, and your point is taken. But I do wonder if, given the startling statistic of 11.5% reporting, the FBI's record-keeping might not be worth much. And I couldn't find a stat for how many men report, although it's probably out there, so I'll keep looking.

I of course will amend my earlier number-1 in 3-4- to include sexual assault (which is still a really bad thing), and go with the number in the more recent study, which says 1 in 7 will be actually raped. A better number, but still depressing.

I'm glad for this experience of having to go look at the primary literature, and I'll keep reading since it's damned interesting. Thank you for making me put my money where my mouth is.

An overview of what I've learned from this admittedly so far brief look into the research:
1.) College is a dangerous place for women.
2.) Almost every study available looks at alcohol use in conjunction with rape/sexual assault. It appears that the vast majority of rapes/assaults are committed by drunk men, which is not surprising, but is something to think about.
3.) There don't appear to be ANY reliable statistics for anyone not in college.

---

Oh look! Another thread discussing sexism ending in a thread about rape. Never saw that before[/sarcasm]

Gentlemen and gentlewomen, place your bets on how much time untill this bunch of apes start flinging shit at eachother and the mods are forced to lock the thread!

Oh, please. This is a hot button topic, and I see some passionate disagreement, some misunderstandings, and a lot of attempts to parse data and learn. I don't see any of the people here as likely to fling shit- you calling me (us?) apes is the worst I've seen here.

And I AM an ape, thank you.

[Lemonvariable72]

Actually zazzy according to the rain stats its 60 % that go unreported, still horrible, but nothing like your 11.5% that are reported. Also the reason so few rapes lead to prison time is a issue with the crime itself as it is often difficult to prove that the woman was indeed raped beyond a reasonable doubt. I hope you do read this as sexist, but rape prosecution often comes down to he she said.

[Darth]

Quick clarification:

I was asking "why assume it's only women who are victims?" as a rhetorical question about my own maths, anticipating others would ask me about it if I just went and did it without explaining why. I wasn't accusing you or Bipolar of making that assumption, rather, that it was an assumption in my working out, as a result of the FBI doing whatever the hell it's doing with those stats.

and I'm guessing lemon mean't "don't" rather than "do" =P