Rule Changes + New Restrictions

[John V]

Thank you for your answers, John. I wasn't trying to chastise you, just trying to point out that a discussion like this can be very volatile, and if we don't all try hard, it can easily get out of hand, to the detriment of any potential good that might have resulted. There is an interfaith dialogue going on here, so there's plenty of kindling lying about if you want to start a fire.

So can I say that he's either an idiot or a troll? That's what he said to me, but you don't tell him to cool it. You see, both formally and informally, there is a double standard at work. You're part of it and don't even realize it.

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Thank you for your answers, John. I wasn't trying to chastise you, just trying to point out that a discussion like this can be very volatile, and if we don't all try hard, it can easily get out of hand, to the detriment of any potential good that might have resulted. There is an interfaith dialogue going on here, so there's plenty of kindling lying about if you want to start a fire.

So can I say that he's either an idiot or a troll? That's what he said to me, but you don't tell him to cool it. You see, both formally and informally, there is a double standard at work. You're part of it and don't even realize it.

ETA: cross-post with your late and weak comment re: LP.

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Whatever happens and contrary to what you do, I'll respect the staff decision. Infact, I'm hoping that the staff decides to punish me, if only to stop your neverending whining.

Do you need instruction on using the ignore function? No one's forcing you to read my posts.

[Angrboda]

Thank you for your answers, John. I wasn't trying to chastise you, just trying to point out that a discussion like this can be very volatile, and if we don't all try hard, it can easily get out of hand, to the detriment of any potential good that might have resulted. There is an interfaith dialogue going on here, so there's plenty of kindling lying about if you want to start a fire.

So can I say that he's either an idiot or a troll? That's what he said to me, but you don't tell him to cool it. You see, both formally and informally, there is a double standard at work. You're part of it and don't even realize it.

I'm not up to speed on the old rules yet, John, much less the new. My guess, without making an official ruling is that yes, you're free to insult him and call him a tard if you like, God knows you likely wouldn't be alone in that desire. What I would say is, however, that replying in kind, though not an infraction, is also likely not going to be one of the more productive steps you can take toward your ostensible goals here.



(On the other hand, if you do decide to insult him, I can offer you some pointers on how to be most effective toward that goal.)

(ETA: Oh, and no, there is no double standard here. But keep it up, funny boy. Do you know my god?)

[LastPoet]

And I will add that the same suggestion goes to LP, who, seems to be implicitly, if not explicitly, expressing some regret about his recent change of status (not speaking of solely in this thread).

Not at all, infact I am quite enjoying the freedom of being just the normal bloke, not having to be responsible all the time. I do admit I am venting some frustration over the dense behaviour of John on this matter, specially after all the trouble I went trough to try to clarify the rule change to him.

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Do you need instruction on using the ignore function? No one's forcing you to read my posts.

No need for that John V, I have a perfectly functional mouse wheel to skip over your posts. Consider this as me going out of this conversation and out of your hair, I will not waste anymore of your time.

[pocaracas]

Ultimately, this is an atheist forum... Gotta have some control over the theists!... while leaving them with a sense of fairness.

The rules apply equally to atheists and theists. Read the forum description once in a while. This forum was created to promote discussion between atheists and theists. It's never been a place for atheists to just gather and avoid believers. If you want a forum like that, try practically all of the other atheist forums on the Internet.

Tib, the smiley face should have tipped you off to the seriousness of that statement.
But let the advice stand for the rest... if you don't like discussions with theists, go to any other atheist forum out there.

[Brakeman]

The rules apply equally to atheists and theists. Read the forum description once in a while. This forum was created to promote discussion between atheists and theists. It's never been a place for atheists to just gather and avoid believers. If you want a forum like that, try practically all of the other atheist forums on the Internet.

Wait! That's not fair at all! Theists have the all knowing and all powerful god whispering in their ears and telling them what to say, but we atheists are on our own with only the reason found within our "luck produced" brains to guide us. Shouldn't we have something to balance the debates out??

[Captain Colostomy]

The rules apply equally to atheists and theists. Read the forum description once in a while. This forum was created to promote discussion between atheists and theists. It's never been a place for atheists to just gather and avoid believers. If you want a forum like that, try practically all of the other atheist forums on the Internet.

Wait! That's not fair at all! Theists have the all knowing and all powerful god whispering in their ears and telling them what to say, but we atheists are on our own with only the reason found within our "luck produced" brains to guide us. Shouldn't we have something to balance the debates out??

I vote for duct tape.

[Cinjin]

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Still clear as mud and basically at the mods' discretion.

I've made it clear before and now reiterate that the owners of a site have every right to do with it as they please. Just interesting that you go through the charade of rules which really amount to nothing.

now I occasionally report a post to the mods, as that's apparently necessary to maintain a right to make casual complaints.

The forum rules are a work in progress, made to accomodate this community in a healthy discussion. We have rules to avoid behaviours that disrupt the forum civility.

Then the rules or their enforcement are failing miserably, as it's a very uncivil forum. Doesn't bother me, but why pretend otherwise?

Like I said - clear as mud.
I have no problems with the rules. It's the enforcement that's the problem. If they're not going to be enforced consistently, why bother pretending they're there?

I should point out that prior to these new rule updates, Minimalist was not breaking the rules, as all insults had to have some personal attribute. This has now changed. If someone feels that any member (Minimalist included) is flaming (that is, using insults rather than contributing to discussion), then it will be dealt with in the appropriate manner.

My guess is that the "appropriate manner" will be...no action.

As I said in my first post - clear as mud.

Oh please, I don't even have Minnie on ignore. He's an asset to our side. He makes atheists look angry in all of his posts, and stupid in most of them.

Again, I'm just noting that the new rules are clear as mud, and your post reinforces that.

As I said, clear as mud. There's little point to publicly posting such "rules." They'd make more sense as internal mod guidelines.

ETA: A real rule would be more along the lines of: posts which only insult and do not add to the discussion are not allowed and will be deleted. The poster will receive a warning on the first offense, a suspension on the second, and will be banned on the third.

You see, both formally and informally, there is a double standard at work. You're part of it and don't even realize it.

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After reading through John's very familiar and painfully stale martyrdom complex it seems that Johnny 5 is sure about one thing: mud is not clear.


That being said, I think he has a valid point. We should definitely punish John V the way we we recently punished GermansAreComing for both trolling this thread and flaming our members with useless remarks that are meant only to spur hostility, as well as continually calling out one of our most celebrated members in a thread that he had nothing to do with.

That's right, Minimalist may toss out a few name-calls around here, but he does it within the thread and directly in the conversation with the person he's insulting --- which is a hell of a lot more than you offered him here in this thread.

You're lucky we do have good admins like Tibs here to look out for theists like you, because if it were up to most the rest of us, trolly little hypocrites like yourself would be gone before you had the chance to say "Jesus loves you ... now burn in hell."

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[Tiberius]

@John:

It would really help if you gave some constructive criticism about what could be done to the rule to make it clearer. Repeating the "clear as mud" mantra doesn't exactly help anyone fix the problem.

[Lion IRC]

John V:

I should point out that prior to these new rule updates, Minimalist was not breaking the rules, as all insults had to have some personal attribute. This has now changed. If someone feels that any member (Minimalist included) is flaming (that is, using insults rather than contributing to discussion), then it will be dealt with in the appropriate manner.

My guess is that the "appropriate manner" will be...no action.

JohnV,
Whats your warning level?
Mine unbelievably is zero!!!

I know you are just trying to help the forum by contributing some thoughts about its moderation but this is a really good AvT forum. Agreed?

Come on.
Say it with me.... Yes, Lion IRC, it is a good and useful forum.

I like it here and I am glad you, and several other strong biblical theists are here too - and have been for quite a while.

There is never going to be a perfect definition of trolling or flaming or preaching or homophobia....etc. etc.
And I have never seen perfect moderation of the fine line between calling an idea stupid, and calling someone stupid "for holding that idea."
But, on balance, the rules and the Mods here, so far, have not impeded me from ...always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks.

[Ryantology]

If you don't want to be insulted for your beliefs, you may want to consider voicing them amongst people whom you know will find them extremely objectionable.

If I go to an gay-friendly forum and start acting like a homophobe, even if I'm doing it in a polite way, I deserve every single personal attack I get. If I go to a Christian forum and start treating their worst examples the way I treat our own forum's unpleasant Christians, what right to I have to whine that some of them say mean things about me?

That's not to say you shouldn't have the freedom to say what you want, but it does mean you waive the right to be a bitch about the consequences. If you want a forum where you can say terrible things in the name of Jesus and expect to not take a dump truck full of shit for them, what the hell are you doing on a forum certain to have people who will react precisely in that manner?