Believing Vs Claiming to Believe

[Godscreated]

you were leading to a deceptive end, your only care is to deconvert.

The end I expect can easily be changed by the answers provided for my questions. I anticipate the conversation will ultimately arrive at its usual point, yes. However, this doesn’t mean that it necessarily has to.

There is a possibility it could go differently, that is if we started giving dishonest answers and I believe you would catch that and point it out. So the more likely happening would be one you were angling for.

Does God approve of something because it is Holy?

-or

Is something Holy because God approves it

If I remember I told you it was neither.

Should I ask the question that’s being begged, or do I just assume you don’t know?

You ask whatever you like and assume whatever tickles your fancy, I'm not playing your game. I gave you the correct answer to your above questions.

Surely someone that runs around here proclaiming to have a firm grasp on God's will knows how to determine what it is that makes ones actions holy or otherwise...

I know exactly what God considers holy, the scriptures describe it well.

So something is holy if it is in the scriptures? If this is true, then any interpretation of the scripture can be equally viewed as holy. But, I don’t think this is true, and I don’t think you do either.
Clearly you know of some standard by which the scriptures are determined to be holy. The floor is yours. I don’t feel that I’m being at all threatening here, I’m just asking questions.

I did not say that, you should read what I said and not what you want said. Did I say the scriptures were holy, I do not think so, they do teach holiness.

I'm not at all sure what being in person has to do with being able to provide a legitimate answer to a straight forward question.

Looking someone in the eyes is the easiest way to determine their intentions, yes I could answer the question, and yes it's straight forward, it's your intention that's not straight forward as you have proven.

My intentions are evident in my questions. My goal is to examine what you say you know to be true. If it is true, then I will adopt it. I will have no choice. I will be incapable of avoiding it.
If your words are convincing enough, I will believe you. That's how it works. If your message is not as convincing as you had hoped, try again. Try a different tact. The things you say have the potential of reinforcing my lack of belief, but it could also change it entirely, or even replace it.
If you think that not looking in my eyes is somehow a barrier in properly conveying your message, then I am sure I don’t understand, as that is only a requirement should your plan be to hypnotize me, and I doubt very seriously that’s what you aim to do.

Nice speech, but no wee-oh. Your intentions became clear with Ronedee, I actually did not think that was what you were up to at first. You would deny the truth no matter what, you've already done that in the past, you have given no indication you've had a change of heart.

I said nothing about looking into your eyes to convey a message, again you are reading what you want to hear not what I stated. I said to look into one's eyes can help determine one's intentions.

You assume Christians have not considered the things you did to lose their faith, you assume if we had we would no longer be Christians

I assume from things observed. It is not a blind assumption. If you think I am wrong, provide me with answers that show me different. If you choose not to, then you are not in a position to criticize my assumption. Wouldn't you agree?

No, I would not, like I said you believe if Christians considered the things you did that lead you away, it would do the same for us, you proved that with Ronedee. You do not consider that we may be stronger than you were, Paul writes that the weak will fall away, Jesus said the same thing in parables. You were in church didn't you study the scriptures and see those things, I did.

Christians here have gone deeper into questioning God than you ever did, ever consider that's why we are not fooled by the ridiculousness of what atheist have to say

That may be, I don't deny it. If you know it to be true, then share with me your answers. I know from my own experience what answers were available when I sought God, and it is this experience combined with the testimony shared by people such as yourself that empower my assumptions.

My testimony was not part of your assumption, you left Christianity before we started to have discussions.
In the above I'm not referring to searching for God, I'm referring to after we became Christians. The reason I know they did, because of the way they deal with questions, the Holy Spirit reveals more than you can imagine.

Did I consider that your questioning of God gave you answers that make my question appear ridiculous?

It's not your questions, it's your intent and the way other atheist ask or state what scriptures mean and ect.

I considered my personal experience as a Christian, and retrospectively I assess the psychological barriers that prevented me from truly questioning God without fear or artificial guilt. I remember the state of denial which instilled a sense of artificial confidence about my faith in the face of adversity.

This artificial confidence shielded me from the reality of my beliefs. For me, looking back, “Faith” was pretending to know things I did not know.

"Faith" is the first step to knowledge of God, why do you think there was so much emphasis put on faith in the NT. Why did you assume so much, wouldn't it have been easier to study scriptures than skate along pretending. I ask questions all the time, was I taught to, not really I wanted to know why, it's my nature. I can no more abandon asking questions than I can being alive. This is why I ind it funny when atheist say I do not question, I've more questions than I can receive answers for in a life time.

By pretending to have such answers for so long, I started to actually believe it. This sense of entitlement to answers would cause me to dismiss challenges such as these as being too “ridiculous” to warrant my attention.


In short, given your responses, or lack there of in some cases, you fit into my assumption perfectly. If you say that I am wrong, tell me why, and explain yourself.

I think I answered in my above statement, you should have studied scripture, gone after the answers with God, not without Him.

I don’t doubt that you’ve questioned God, but I suspect you do so in much the same way that I did, which is to say, blinded by confirmation bias and a false sense of enlightenment. So far, that's the impression your responses have left on me.

Maybe you did, but I have my doubts, God lead me to the answers. Conformation bias and false sense of enlightenment had nothing to do with it. I wanted to know, I wanted to know what I did not know or understand and this was after I became a Christian, long after and it continues even today, as I've already said. I will not quit questioning God until I die, I want to know and understand all I can before I meet Him face to face.

could it be true we've already worked through much with God. That's what you need to consider.

It is that very thing I consider when I offer you the opportunity to share what you’ve claimed to discover. I have said over and over again that I do not deny this a possibility, however, my doubt of it actually being true increases at every failed attempt to establish such truth.

Could it be the only failed attempt you see are what you want to see, instead of the truth that's presented to you by others. I see you doing this by the way you work around answers to get Christians to consider your false assumptions.

You say you have the answers that you’ve discovered through God.
I do not, so I ask the questions in hopes of examining your claims.
If you don’t answer them, it is unclear why you would criticize my skepticism toward your claim.

You will always be skeptical of what I claim, why, because I see you're not serious about finding God when you continually try to get others to see why we should doubt what we believe. It doesn't work that way, if you're interested in knowing God you would listen and then search the scriptures to test us, you would do it with the hope God would lead you to the truth.

I do not take offense at challenges to my knowledge of God, I do take offense when others think I practice religion or when insults are hurled because I believe differently than atheist do

Retrace any honest exchange you and I have had, specifically, this one. I am giving you the floor, and asking you direct questions that you have claimed to have answers to. The choice to answer them is obviously yours, but be aware of the reasons you provide should you ignore them. If I’ve provided you with an unobstructed opportunity for you to present your case, and you decline, then it is you that has failed to present information, and not an unwillingness on my part to listen

You want to know what is holy, don't you think that there are basic questions that are more important? Don't you think that looking for truth in the scriptures is more important than taking a verse out of context and trying to disprove God's existence. You see when one takes this approach one is not seeking truth through God. I believe one is looking to confirm a non belief to suit there own purposes. If one is not honest with one's self then why would one expect to learn anything and why should one expect God to just jump off the pages of scripture and say here I am in an audible voice when scriptures teach "faith".

GC

[The Reality Salesman01]

Does God approve of something because it is Holy?

-or

Is something Holy because God approves it


Should I ask the question that’s being begged, or do I just assume you don’t know?

You ask whatever you like and assume whatever tickles your fancy, I'm not playing your game. I gave you the correct answer to your above questions.

When you answered that it is neither. You implied that it is something else. However, you didn’t say what it was. So, it begs the question, what makes something holy?

I did not say that, you should read what I said and not what you want said. Did I say the scriptures were holy, I do not think so, they do teach holiness.

The scriptures give examples of things that take part in holiness, this is true. That is not what my question was. Perhaps I’m being too vague.
Take approval for example. You see that there is a difference between something that gets approved, and something being approved. For something to be holy, is there a certain criteria that God approves as holy, or is something holy because God approves it?
For anybody to follow God, and strive to be holy, would they not need a direction on what to strive for? I’m asking you for how one can know that. You can tell me to read the scripture, and it’s apparent that you doubt that I have, but the answer to my question is necessary if I am to acquire the right interpretation when I read it. Do you not agree that some people get the wrong interpretation of what they think God wants from them? Do you not agree that they have mistaken what is actually holy? Do you not believe that you, yourself know what God considers holy while you recognize that others have mistaken? I’m asking you to tell me. I’m not coding it, It’s not a baited question. I am not being condescending, I’m asking you a very legitimate question that pertains directly to the words you have shared. I’m merely asking questions and drawing inferences from your answers to them.

You would deny the truth no matter what, you've already done that in the past

Deny truth? You accuse me of this with no example? I have told you that if you present truth I will not be able to deny it. Is 2 and 2 four? Would I be a fool to deny it? If I did, would it be ever so easy for you to show how I am wrong? Give me an example of the truth you claim I’ve denied, as that is the worst thing I could do.

Paul writes that the weak will fall away, Jesus said the same thing in parables. You were in church didn't you study the scriptures and see those things, I did.

I think this is the first genuine attempt you’ve made to really explain your resistance to my questions. I appreciate it.
You believe it is weak to fall away from one’s belief because it says so in The Bible. You have stated that you question God and this questioning has lead you to an affirmation of things you already believed were true.
This scripture suggests that there is something inherently weak about a person if their questioning that seeks answers not yet found, yet leads to doubt VS questioning that seeks answers and finds affirmation?
This suggests that the affirmed conclusion derived from the questioning is the stronger conclusion. This is a claim that must easily be justified with reasons that would support the stronger of the two conclusions. You seem to endorse this opinion by Paul, give me your reasons that make an affirming conclusion stronger than one that leads to doubt.

My testimony was not part of your assumption, you left Christianity before we started to have discussions.
In the above I'm not referring to searching for God, I'm referring to after we became Christians. The reason I know they did, because of the way they deal with questions, the Holy Spirit reveals more than you can imagine.

The way you answer questions is very similar to how they answer questions. The way they answer questions is the way my mother answers questions. The way my mother answers questions is the way I used to answer them. There is nothing foreign about the answers that are provided to questions that seek answers. When a Christian asks a question in church, they are seeking an answer that reaffirms what already gives them comfort to believe.

I am genuinely open to hearing something you have to say that may cause me to form a belief and agree with you. Why am I not asking Atheists questions about Holiness and Faith? I would only be seeking affirmation. I'm asking somebody that may present something new that has a potential to being incompatible with what I previously thought, and I am willing to accept that answer through honest self reflection if it is true.

If somebody told me at 17 that they were having a crisis with faith, I would tell them to pray. I would tell them to remember to put Christ first in everything you do. I would tell them that God will tell them what they needed to hear when they were ready to listen. This is very much what you say here. Go to a Christian forum, you'll find threads dedicated to that very thing, filled with similar stereotypical resonses. If one wants to believe that they have the answers, very much like I once insisted that I did, they will only consider the ones that reinforce that belief. There is nothing comforting about professing that I don't know. What motive would I have for rejecting things that are so clearly true to perpetuate a life of insisted ignorance? Everything you say, I am listening to. But keep in mind, you may not be the first one to tell me what you have to say, and I may not have found it convincing from them either because I too may have said it to someone else at a different time.

If you find your words have no impact, consider taking a new approach. If it is truth, like 2+2 is 4, than this truth can be conveyed with the right words.

"Faith" is the first step to knowledge of God,

Thank you again, as this is another attempt to defend a clear position. You have stated that you use “faith” as an epistemology. Now, we have something we can talk about.
I will end my thoughts with this final response to “faith”.
It would be easy for me to tell you what “faith” means. But my definition doesn’t matter. If I am to be sincere in giving you an honest opportunity to explain your position, then it is your definition of “faith” as an epistemology that I will engage in discussion. So very shortly, if you wish to continue, give me your definition of the word.

[ronedee]

So in effect, you got no answer at all, you merely attributed an outcome to gods will. You didn't even know what god's will was going to be but you prayed for it, asking for nothing!

This is like praying to my mailbox to be full or not, whatever the magic mailbox wishes!

Now obviously, given the bible stories, not all people fail to get a true voice with communication from god, or else they are lying. What's wrong with you so that god doesn't want to talk to you? Is he too busy? Is jesus just so burnt out on it all that he doesn't care any longer?

Well, I didn't expect you to understand. If you did I wouldn't be relaying experiences....that I hate btw. Just because of how people will take it and shove them up my ass.

But, while we're at it.... what good would it do to beg for my mothers life? What point would be made?

In terms your infant spirituality can understand: if your significate other knew you needed an exfoliate badly for your obvious scrotum skin problems, but you were unable to get it yourself, would you scream and cry? Or would you try to hide the issue? Or would you trust it to her/his capable hands to get the needed product "she/he knows you need?"

[Bad Wolf]

In terms your infant spirituality can understand: if your sugnificate other knew you needed an exfoliate badly

Only you could call someone an infant and miss spell a word in the same sentence without any shame
And yes, I got there before you edited it

[Doubting Thomas]

if your significate other

And he still misspelled it after editing it.

[Bad Wolf]

Double facepalm!

[ronedee]

Double facepalm!

LOL! Cen't you guyz do butter thun examuming my spulling for errurs?

[Bad Wolf]

LOL! Cen't you guyz do butter thun examuming my spulling for errurs?

It wasn't the spelling I was focusing on, but the irony and hypocrisy.
If you are going to call someone a child, be sure that they cannot call you one back

[Brakeman]

So in effect, you got no answer at all, you merely attributed an outcome to gods will. You didn't even know what god's will was going to be but you prayed for it, asking for nothing!

This is like praying to my mailbox to be full or not, whatever the magic mailbox wishes!

Now obviously, given the bible stories, not all people fail to get a true voice with communication from god, or else they are lying. What's wrong with you so that god doesn't want to talk to you? Is he too busy? Is jesus just so burnt out on it all that he doesn't care any longer?

Well, I didn't expect you to understand. If you did I wouldn't be relaying experiences....that I hate btw. Just because of how people will take it and shove them up my ass.

But, while we're at it.... what good would it do to beg for my mothers life? What point would be made?

In terms your infant spirituality can understand: if your significate other knew you needed an exfoliate badly for your obvious scrotum skin problems, but you were unable to get it yourself, would you scream and cry? Or would you try to hide the issue? Or would you trust it to her/his capable hands to get the needed product "she/he knows you need?"

I differ from you, I do relate my experiences as I strongly feel that the truth is the truth, and reality is the best guide. Only con men hate the bright light of investigation.

Secondly, if my significate (sic) other knew perfectly well what I needed and could "cure" me without the slightest effort, I'd not be praying to her, I'd be screaming at her why she was obviously enjoying watching me suffer.

If god loves you and your mother, and could cure your mother without the slightest bit of effort, yet he doesn't to show up to alleviate the suffering, then he is an ass.

[Godscreated]

You would deny the truth no matter what, you've already done that in the past

Deny truth? You accuse me of this with no example?

The example is your ditching Christianity. You may not see Christianity as truth, however I do and you are asking for my thoughts, right.

I have told you that if you present truth I will not be able to deny it. Is 2 and 2 four? Would I be a fool to deny it? If I did, would it be ever so easy for you to show how I am wrong? Give me an example of the truth you claim I've denied, as that is the worst thing I could do.

Jesus tells us that people will deny the truth when it's presented to them in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:19-31. Salvation is the truth you have denied, isn't this what we have been referring to. Scripture says you're a fool for denying this truth.

Paul writes that the weak will fall away, Jesus said the same thing in parables. You were in church didn't you study the scriptures and see those things, I did.

I think this is the first genuine attempt you’ve made to really explain your resistance to my questions. I appreciate it.
You believe it is weak to fall away from one’s belief because it says so in The Bible.

Not just any belief, we're talking about Christianity and I do believe what Paul says.

You have stated that you question God and this questioning has lead you to an affirmation of things you already believed were true.

No, I questioned God about things I did not understand, I trusted Him to reveal the truth, so I patiently waited. Why would anyone question about something they already know as true?

This scripture suggests that there is something inherently weak about a person if their questioning that seeks answers not yet found, yet leads to doubt VS questioning that seeks answers and finds affirmation?
This suggests that the affirmed conclusion derived from the questioning is the stronger conclusion. This is a claim that must easily be justified with reasons that would support the stronger of the two conclusions. You seem to endorse this opinion by Paul, give me your reasons that make an affirming conclusion stronger than one that leads to doubt.

One asking a question hopes for positive results, doubt in my book would be a negative. Do not misunderstand, I'm not saying a negative answer is a bad thing, it could very well confirm a positive result, answers of no come from God all the time. My suggestion to anyone that has questions for God, do not ask a question that can be answered with a yes or no, ask why.

My testimony was not part of your assumption, you left Christianity before we started to have discussions.
In the above I'm not referring to searching for God, I'm referring to after we became Christians. The reason I know they did, because of the way they deal with questions, the Holy Spirit reveals more than you can imagine.

The way you answer questions is very similar to how they answer questions. The way they answer questions is the way my mother answers questions. The way my mother answers questions is the way I used to answer them. There is nothing foreign about the answers that are provided to questions that seek answers. When a Christian asks a question in church, they are seeking an answer that reaffirms what already gives them comfort to believe.

I don't and many I've taught haven't, and others I've known have not, we have asked questions to dispel what is uncomfortable or what does not seem to fit with God. These are the questions that God answers with more than yes or no. We believe God is right in all He has done, yet when we find something that seems to be, let's say less than godly, we search out why and asking God directly is the best way.

I am genuinely open to hearing something you have to say that may cause me to form a belief and agree with you. Why am I not asking Atheists questions about Holiness and Faith? I would only be seeking affirmation. I'm asking somebody that may present something new that has a potential to being incompatible with what I previously thought, and I am willing to accept that answer through honest self reflection if it is true.

The only thing I know to tell you is to be open to God and ask those questions that seem impossible to answer, if that's the type of questions you have. God wants your questions and to fear retribution from God is entirely and completely silly. You do know that it will take serious Bible study with the openness and honesty with yourself, in essence you will need to start over. As I pointed out I did not look for answer to affirm what I already believe, I looked for the truth no matter what God had to say. I wanted and want answers that relieve what makes me uncomfortable with God and Christianity.

If somebody told me at 17 that they were having a crisis with faith, I would tell them to pray. I would tell them to remember to put Christ first in everything you do. I would tell them that God will tell them what they needed to hear when they were ready to listen. This is very much what you say here. Go to a Christian forum, you'll find threads dedicated to that very thing, filled with similar stereotypical resonses. If one wants to believe that they have the answers, very much like I once insisted that I did, they will only consider the ones that reinforce that belief. There is nothing comforting about professing that I don't know. What motive would I have for rejecting things that are so clearly true to perpetuate a life of insisted ignorance? Everything you say, I am listening to. But keep in mind, you may not be the first one to tell me what you have to say, and I may not have found it convincing from them either because I too may have said it to someone else at a different time.

Those are real good ways to gain further knowledge of God but, not the only way. There can be different ways to get answers from God, I found mine because I already trusted God and knew He is real, and as I said I waited patiently for the answer while continuing to study His word. I wasn't trying to reaffirm something I already knew, I was looking for answers to things I did not understand, I searched for truth. I've always found it up till this time, sometimes it's taken years, but I do not easily abandon something I truly believe.

If you find your words have no impact, consider taking a new approach. If it is truth, like 2+2 is 4, than this truth can be conveyed with the right words.

Those right words need to come from God, He has the answers. I do not express my thoughts through written words very well, could be why I like the one on one, face to face. You do understand that if you reject what I have said it's not me you have rejected, right?

"Faith" is the first step to knowledge of God,

Thank you again, as this is another attempt to defend a clear position. You have stated that you use “faith” as an epistemology. Now, we have something we can talk about.

I'm not trying to defend my position, I do not need to, why do you believe I'm trying to defend what God has given me, to me it makes no sense.
I said that faith is the beginning of verified knowledge, faith in Christ brings one to salvation, then the rest is attained by caring to see the truth of and about God. Please do not make the mistaken belief that I stopped at faith, though faith is always a part of Christian life, it's not by any means all.

I will end my thoughts with this final response to “faith”.
It would be easy for me to tell you what “faith” means. But my definition doesn’t matter. If I am to be sincere in giving you an honest opportunity to explain your position, then it is your definition of “faith” as an epistemology that I will engage in discussion. So very shortly, if you wish to continue, give me your definition of the word.

Belief without sight, either physically, mentally or otherwise, it is a beginning to belief and belief leads to knowledge. Faith is the first step in a process to knowledge of God.

GC

PS- God says, "be Holy as I am Holy." This is the answer that will come if you decide to return to Christ, the understanding will come later, as you use to say, when you're ready to hear.