(November 7, 2009 at 7:49 pm)solarwave Wrote: I think its a nice idea to try to read the bible without using what the church has taught us, but I think that has problems since the knowledge of the church is greater than my own. I can read the bible and understand it so far, but I don't know Hebrew or Greek, I haven't studied theology myself fully and I’m not an expert on Hebrew history/culture. I can read books on these of course, but it would take a long time to build up that sort of knowledge. I know you may think this an easy way out but for practical purposes (especially for those of lower intelligence) to assume that the better informed priest or pastor knows better generally than you is a fair bet. From there one can tackle the issues one most cares about (i.e.: I disagree with most people in my church on creationism). I accept that I may be wrong about a number of things, but I will find that out in time.
Do churches know more than you? Well, they may know more but they're not telling you what they know, if it doesn't serve their best interests or agenda. And providing you with information they consider dangerous... meaning you might question or abandon your faith if you knew... they will not. Naturally, they want you to study with them and not someone else. So, if you wish to rely on their knowledge, go right ahead. You'll get nowhere.
Example: Go to churches of three or four denominations... say Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon. Ask them why their theology is so different and who is right? I can tell you what they'll say but you already know. So, the truth of the matter is simply this, they may know more but they are not honest.
Well, naturally we'd like to give their integrity the benefit of the doubt. Right? Go right ahead. But if you do even the slightest bit of studying the history of the Hebrew Bible and Hebrew history you'll come to realize that the church ignores a ton of it. They have no choice. It's irreconcilable with their dogma. And that, my friend, is dishonest.
Quote:It's not that I don’t think you are honest, its just that your arguments may just not be very good. I've also learned that obviously Christians get it wrong even if I like the sound of what they are saying.
It's quite possible that my argument might not be very good. Doesn't matter. I'm not asking you to believe anything. I'm asking you to question and scrutinize, on your own. I can't do your thinking for you. I don't know what you'll consider valid as an argument. But you do.
My problem as a Christian was much like yours. I wanted to know the truth, but I didn't know how to go about sorting it all out. And I had that ever present desire to protect my faith, so that didn't help either. It took me a long time to finally put together a system that worked. And years later I discovered that I hadn't invented anything new. It was there all the time, I just didn't know it. It's called the Scientific Method and it can be summed up on one sentence. "A single well-substantiated fact, irreconcilable with a belief is sufficient to prove that belief false."
There's that "well-substantiated fact" and "sound reasoning" getting in the way again. My friend, well-substantiated facts are not that hard to find, if you really want to find them. Trouble is, we often say we want to find them, but when they are presented, we make every excuse in the book to claim they aren't good enough.
Quote:Let me ask you something then. When you were being objective did you also stop having a relationship with God and turned Him more into an idea than a person? (Assuming you knew Him personally before).
No. The process of abandoning my faith was slow. I abandoned one belief at a time. And during to whole time I was praying to God, "Lord help me to find the real truth."
Quote:Also, would you say wanting to escape from the Christian morals had something to do with your losing faith? I mean you may have good reason to reject God, but do you think wanting moral freedom could have driven it more? That’s a test of objective openness about yourself
Fair question. Yes! Christian morals definitely played a role. In fact, they were the straw that broke the camels back. I could ignore all the absurdities in the Bible, but I couldn't ignore the bankrupt morals the Bible nurtures and nurtured in me. And because I was a religious nut, I was about as hateful and intolerant a loving Christian as you could find, anywhere.
So, one day I couldn't stand my loving self anymore and decided to find some better values. I sat down and made a list of what I thought a just and loving person should be. And when I finished my list I compared it to what the Bible taught and bingo... I knew I had to make some changes. I would hate no more. So, the door was open to re-examine everything I believed in the context of my new values, reality, sound reasoning and as much objectivity as I could muster.
