Theists, are you immune to being decieved?

[Esquilax]

5) Only physical processes are real; mental properties are an illusion.

Seriously: mental processes are just another set of physical ones. Considering your example, your sensory apparatus picks up the scent of cookies, and specific physical reactions, trackable within your brain, align that scent with a similar sense perception stored in your memory. Now you've been reminded of your grandma, and yet more entirely physical reactions take place within your brain, with the aim of comparing socially acceptable actions based upon this new thought in your brain, in this case, sending her a card. All the thoughts you have are just your consciousness' interpretation of the physical patchwork of heuristics and so on that have kept your lineage alive throughout the ages.

Our answer doesn't beg the question, your question just doesn't make sense. It's like you asked for the causal relationship between ice and ice; it's the same thing.

[pocaracas]

Is it ice, or very cold water?

[The Reality Salesman01]

Has any theist ever heard of Thomas Hobbes?!!!!

Perception people!!!!!

Sometimes it seems as though Theists read Descartes, and closed their philosophy books. Read the next chapter!

[Violet]

Strictly speaking, "How do you know you're not delusional?" can only be responded to with an assumption by anyone. If you were delusional, you might not know it. You could be undergoing an extremely potent hallucination, after all.

And sometimes you're undergoing many extremely potent hallucinations, all at once. Reality is usually pretty easy to pick out, but may the gods help you if you are in a situation where it is not so 'easy'.

---

Has any theist ever heard of Thomas Hobbes?!!!!

Perception people!!!!!

Sometimes it seems as though Theists read Descartes, and closed their philosophy books. Read the next chapter!

Yes. Unfortunately, I cannot think of a reason you've brought him into this.

Except Descartes didn't take it far enough, and was too focused upon himself to realize the truth.

Think a little bit, TRS

[The Reality Salesman01]

Oh really, perhaps I got a different interpretation from Leviathan. Did you not get the sense that he was laying out framework for a materialist view? I did, and that's why I thought it was perfectly relevant to a conversation about whether or not materialism is more compatible with our experience than dualism. It was also my impression that Descartes supported that view, but again, you probably understood that better than me as well.

---

Wait a minute... Am I being punked???? Ashton!!!!

[Violet]

Oh really, perhaps I got a different interpretation from Leviathan. Did you not get the sense that he was laying out framework for a materialist view?

Yes. Of course, he did a really shitty job of it.

I did, and that's why I thought it was perfectly relevant to a conversation about whether or not materialism is more compatible with our experience than dualism.

'Materialism' is arrived at after a few deviations based on one's answers to the basis questions... it requires the answer 'yes' to logic's truth, for instance.

'Dualism' also requires the answer 'yes' to logic's truth. Edit+2: But they deviate as early as the third question along the line of logic->perception=nonomniscient->Laws=Universal/nonuniversal. The universe must either be natural, and the supernatural nonexistent, or the universe must experience its laws being in flux, the supernatural being that which does not change with the laws (the laws which MUST BE, having answered 'yes' to logic's truth).

It was also my impression that Descartes supported that view, but again, you probably understood that better than me as well.

I wouldn't say I understood him better. All I would say, is that solipsism, true in some respects, does not preclude the reality of the existence of all things, regardless of the perception of those things.

But then, I can only do that because I answered 'yes' to the questions prior to it

---

Wait a minute... Am I being punked???? Ashton!!!!

Only a little I keep things held well-back, unless I think the person I'm speaking to doesn't deserve that check

Added some very important edits. Sorry I was terse the first time, I'm helping my man cook some food ^_^

---

I could explain better how dualism works, but I don't want to cut across you if you already understand portions and just need the missing pieces. The key is 'multiple planes of existence that each have entirely separate rules, and the rules of one set may completely and utterly contradict the rules of another set'. (which is the antithesis of materialism's 'all the world on one arrow')

[The Reality Salesman01]

Oh...so you did understand why I brought him up! For a second, I thought you said you couldn't think of a reason. My mistake.

[Violet]

Oh...so you did understand why I brought him up! For a second, I thought you said you couldn't think of a reason. My mistake.

Of course But I am really sorry for rambling piecemeal thoughts as I realize 'oh hey, I did a shit job of explaining it, ummm, oh, let's try this wa-oh that was terrible. Aight, got it, it's out!

Oh, it's kinda cut short... >_< gottaexpanditalittlebitjustincase-THERE!'

Then I was all, 'hmmm... I could do better.'

Edit: there's also a set of 'materialism/dualism' that is down the nonLogic path, but nobody else seems interested in dat metaphysical stuff. (edit2: but in case you are, nonLogic is not necessarily without a logic of any sort.. it is only necessarily devoid of 'Logic' as we understand it)

[The Reality Salesman01]

You're pretty.

[Violet]

You're pretty.

What's this flattery about?

My soul's gorgeous. My body... will get there.