Why would God?

[StoryBook]

No one is born with sin, we are all born with the nature to sin and we all have sinned. No, all sin are not equal, the more one sins and the greater sin one commits will result in one punishing themselves more than others will, all punishment is not equal.

Psalms 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Doesn't this imply that people can be born with sin? Also since god created human doesn't that mean he is tempting us with sin?

First thing you need to prove the angels are unhappy and are slaves. God will never take my free will from me, if I chose to I could reject Him at anytime.

I can't prove fiction. I also can't keep track of all the changes to the story. My bad...God is god, and we are not god

Doesn't work by chance, you will either spend eternity with God or in hell, hell will be plenty crowded, yet you will never see another person, you will hear there anguish in suffering though. God uses the description of fire and brimstone to describe hell because man could not understand what a terrible place hell would be like otherwise.

GC

It does work by chance, I don't believe in heaven or hell. Anyway, why would god allow a horrible place to exist? He's all powerful, and its not very loving to send someone to hell for eternity because they didn't believe.

[Godscreated]

Oh I'm going to show you so everyone else can see, we're going to have so much fun. Sunday School, Sunday morning Worship Service, Sunday night Worship Service, Wednesday mid-week Services and visitation every Thursday evening. Bible study every night and then prayer for an hour or so, then we can log-on to Atheist Forums.org and debate the unbelievers, yep, so much fun.

Your path to the knowledge of god sounds a lot like brain washing.
[/quote]

No one brainwashed me, the decision was all mine, the proof is all God's.

GC

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I've experienced God, many times, of coarse you want ever believe so.

How do you know I won't ever believe? Aside from the fact that I don't find your arguments convincing now, what information about me do you have to make that assessment?

I never said you wouldn't, nor have I ever said that to anyone here. I am praying that one day you will see God's truth. To make an assessment like that is far out of my ability.

So, you're saying you will go to church with me and follow the instructions through scripture and my personal experiences to see the demonstrable evidence. Good I expect to see you in my church in a couple of weeks, will get started after the New year so you can have your last fling. This will be great can't wait to get started, please bring your Bible, it's you instruction and study book, homework is required, sorry that's part of the experience.

Oh, don't be childish. One of the premises of your religion is that anyone can come to Jesus, isn't it? Even assuming I accept any of this, I'd hardly need to come to your church to do it; you're just setting up a scenario you know I (being in another country) won't be able to fulfill, so you can crow about how unwilling I am. It's dishonest.

I did not know you were in another country, I did not expect you would take me up on the offer even if you lived next to the church building. You asked for demonstrable evidence and I know of no other way to demonstrate it.

What I'm saying is that whatever led you to god is a set of actions that anyone could repeat, like going to a church, praying, etc etc. Like a science experiment; only I'd be quick to point out that those same actions tend to lead to different results, given how many different denominations of your religion there are, not to mention how many of us atheists were formerly a part of those.

Maybe, maybe not, God deals with each one in a way best for that person. Going to church and Bible study is a great start but, without a repentant heart in the end one want get there. The result is salvation, not what denomination one chooses, no denomination will save anyone, and those that might believe it would have not studied scripture, let lone read it. Being a part of something doesn't make you genuine.

And cue No True Scotsman from you...

Ah, your little pet rises from it's bed, to bad you need such a thing for a crutch. You do know that being born as a Scotsman, Irishman, Indian or anything else was not a decision you made nor can change. Being a Christian is something one chooses to be and there are certain things that become a part of ones life and if they are not there then one just isn't a Christian.

Actually if I knew you were going to seek out the proof I have I would not have said that, I'm getting excited about this demonstration, how about you.

It depends on what you've got. If it's anything like a subjective demonstration, like prayer or religious personal experience, then of course we'll need to set up multiple tests, with a control group, you know, to weed out bias. Actually, multiple test groups would be better: we can get a group of christians, a group of atheists, a group of muslims and so on, and they can all take part in the demonstration you propose, and we can see just how many of them feel your specific god's influence when we do!

Now I'm excited!

Me too, bring them with you. We'll be waiting with open arms and hearts.

Oh I'm going to show you so everyone else can see, we're going to have so much fun. Sunday School, Sunday morning Worship Service, Sunday night Worship Service, Wednesday mid-week Services and visitation every Thursday evening. Bible study every night and then prayer for an hour or so, then we can log-on to Atheist Forums.org and debate the unbelievers, yep, so much fun.

Assuming your proposed test produced statistically significant results across multiple test groups, sure!

As long as you bring an open heart and not a set of bias you will cling to.

GC

[Godscreated]

No one is born with sin, we are all born with the nature to sin and we all have sinned. No, all sin are not equal, the more one sins and the greater sin one commits will result in one punishing themselves more than others will, all punishment is not equal.

Psalms 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Doesn't this imply that people can be born with sin? Also since god created human doesn't that mean he is tempting us with sin?

First God says He does not tempt, with His power we would not be able to resist, that would be unfair. As for the passage you gave, do you even know what it means or who it's about and why. If you do not then why post things you have no understanding of, that particular verse can not stand alone, it needs the entire psalm to make sense.

First thing you need to prove the angels are unhappy and are slaves. God will never take my free will from me, if I chose to I could reject Him at anytime.

I can't prove fiction. I also can't keep track of all the changes to the story. My bad...God is god, and we are not god

If you believe it's fiction then you need to prove it's fiction and should before using it, that would only be fair, right.

Doesn't work by chance, you will either spend eternity with God or in hell, hell will be plenty crowded, yet you will never see another person, you will hear there anguish in suffering though. God uses the description of fire and brimstone to describe hell because man could not understand what a terrible place hell would be like otherwise.

GC

It does work by chance, I don't believe in heaven or hell. Anyway, why would god allow a horrible place to exist? He's all powerful, and its not very loving to send someone to hell for eternity because they didn't believe.

It doesn't matter whether you believe or not, not believing can't change what is.
God created such a place to punish the guilty, those guilty of sin. There has to be a balance in justice, a balance that most seem to reject and that's why many reject God. The balance is this, for those rewarded for repentance there must be punishment for those who do not. If only the reward were to be given and no punishment, then what meaning does the reward have.
God sends no one to hell, everyone who goes there has chosen to.

GC

[Jacob(smooth)]

Interesting concept. You speak of balance for sin, fair enough. But then we start talking about eternal hell. Now I can't think of any sin which would be balanced by eternity. TIME, maybe. But eternity?
How is that balanced?

[là bạn điên]

What is the point of punishing someone for eternity? The point of punishment is to change behavior.

[StoryBook]

I can't prove fiction. I also can't keep track of all the changes to the story. My bad...God is god, and we are not god

If you believe it's fiction then you need to prove it's fiction and should before using it, that would only be fair, right.

You need to prove it is non-fiction. A mistranslated,old, rewritten book is not evidence of god. You can not be 100% positive that that book/religion is correct over all the others. You also can not be sure that the god you prey to is real and the other gods and goddesses are not.

It doesn't matter whether you believe or not, not believing can't change what is.
God created such a place to punish the guilty, those guilty of sin. There has to be a balance in justice, a balance that most seem to reject and that's why many reject God. The balance is this, for those rewarded for repentance there must be punishment for those who do not. If only the reward were to be given and no punishment, then what meaning does the reward have.
God sends no one to hell, everyone who goes there has chosen to.

GC

What is it? Which god?

What meaning for eternal punishment? I did not chose hell, I chose neither.

[Godscreated]

Interesting concept. You speak of balance for sin, fair enough. But then we start talking about eternal hell. Now I can't think of any sin which would be balanced by eternity. TIME, maybe. But eternity?
How is that balanced?

The only way to have balance is equality on each side, eternal reward = eternal punishment. If that's not enough for you then look at this way, God is eternal and any sin committed against Him is eternal, right? Those who have come to know Christ as their savior have forgiveness of sin, thus God doesn't recognize our sin. Those who have not accepted Christ as their savior have no forgiveness, thus God recognizes all their sin, sin that's eternal, never to be forgiven and deserves an eternal punishment, right?

GC

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What is the point of punishing someone for eternity? The point of punishment is to change behavior.

Not in this case, God says these people are hopelessly lost to sin and will never change, this is why He gives man time on earth to repent and change under His conviction. Those who understand conviction understand it's a punishment through love.

GC

[StoryBook]

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What is the point of punishing someone for eternity? The point of punishment is to change behavior.

Not in this case, God says these people are hopelessly lost to sin and will never change, this is why He gives man time on earth to repent and change under His conviction. Those who understand conviction understand it's a punishment through love.

GC

So you mean that this loving god will send a 3year old to hell? Even go as far as torture that 3 year old to death, with cancer. This 3 year does not understand how to repent, god, or believe in god for that matter. So by your saying, its ok for god to send that child to hell. How sick, does not sound like enough time to me.

[Godscreated]

If you believe it's fiction then you need to prove it's fiction and should before using it, that would only be fair, right.

You need to prove it is non-fiction. A mistranslated,old, rewritten book is not evidence of god. You can not be 100% positive that that book/religion is correct over all the others. You also can not be sure that the god you prey to is real and the other gods and goddesses are not.

Yes I can and do. I know without a doubt that God is real and is who He says He is, I know His word ie. Bible is trustworthy and reveals God to the world. Knowing this I trust God when He said there are no other gods, He is the only true and real God. You have a great misunderstanding of faith as many do on this forum. Faith is trusting what the real and only God says is true, knowing God is real is the only way one can come to that kind of trust.

It doesn't matter whether you believe or not, not believing can't change what is.
God created such a place to punish the guilty, those guilty of sin. There has to be a balance in justice, a balance that most seem to reject and that's why many reject God. The balance is this, for those rewarded for repentance there must be punishment for those who do not. If only the reward were to be given and no punishment, then what meaning does the reward have.
God sends no one to hell, everyone who goes there has chosen to.

GC

What is it? Which god?

The God of creation, there's no other, He's the One you rebel against.

What meaning for eternal punishment? I did not chose hell, I chose neither.

By not choosing God's gift for repentance you have chosen hell. Unforgiven sin is what places you in hell, and Christ is the only avenue to forgiveness.

GC

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What is the point of punishing someone for eternity? The point of punishment is to change behavior.

Not in this case, God says these people are hopelessly lost to sin and will never change, this is why He gives man time on earth to repent and change under His conviction. Those who understand conviction understand it's a punishment through love.

GC

So you mean that this loving god will send a 3year old to hell? Even go as far as torture that 3 year old to death, with cancer. This 3 year does not understand how to repent, god, or believe in god for that matter. So by your saying, its ok for god to send that child to hell. How sick, does not sound like enough time to me.

Your being ridiculous, a three year old doesn't even know what sin is, young children are loved deeply by God, Christ when He was on earth warned against mistreating young children and keeping them from Him. You only have to be sensible when thinking about what God would do, why would you believe God would send a three year old to hell, could it be because someone told you this or because that's how you want to see God in your rebellion. No matter which it is they both seem to me to be a sick way of looking at God and life, wouldn't you say? God does not give cancer to children or anyone else, those types of things happen in life, God can, does and will work through these bad things to help people, we only have to look for Him.

GC

[IAmNotHere]

Something worth discussing with believers