Christianity's god says that we are not worthy without him.

[Angrboda]

The thing that gets me is that they could have gone the other way. How about Original Grace instead of Original Sin? How about telling kids they must be valuable because God loves them instead of they're valuable because God loves them?

There's no good reason for Christians not to tell their children they're kind and good and beautiful and deserve to be loved. A fair number of Christians do, so I don't buy that children being born worthless is a necessary part of their religion.

I think the answer to this lies in the function of the stories in the old testament. Unlike Christians, the Jews believed that a person's wrongdoing would be punished in this life, not in any hereafter. And if a whole people were guilty of error, the whole would be punished in this world. It's a cultural identity myth; it's purpose is to keep the people together by motivating them all to believe the same cultural stories. The Hebrews most likely were a strain of Semite intermixed with all the other breeds of humans occupying Canaan, and so stories evolved to make them feel special and obligated to care about that specialness. The carrot is a poor long term solution to keep a people united; the stick works much better. So they have a myth of oppression (Exodus) and of triumph (Joshua) and tales of bad, fallen away Jews being punished, and good, united Jews prospering. Just as in biological evolution, those Canaanite Jews who developed such myths stayed together and by staying together, continued the myths; those who didn't, weren't able to stay together as a people, even though they likely had their stories too — their stories didn't exert a force to keep them together as a culture, retelling the stories over and over again. So the ultimate answer is that, from the perspective of social psychology, myths of redemption and creating the idea that by being united you can be saved from something, those memes worked better in terms of perpetuating themselves by encouraging the hearer to a) think of his group membership as valuable (redemptive), and b) encouraged him to repeat and celebrate those stories. Other memes simply didn't succeed at keeping themselves alive in a cohesive, unified culture in the same way.

[Drich]

Worthy of what?

I'm not going play your game of feigned ignorance. You are definitely well enough versed in the bible scripture to know what I'm talking about even if you don't agree with it or if you have various apologies for it.

Why don't you try to be straightforward and honest for a while?

I ask question because that is how I want you to approach something I have said if you do not completely understand.

You said not worthy. My question is an honest one. My faith tells me to assume 'not worthy of eternal life.' If this is the case then I would also assume you would know God's declaration or prerequisites for eternal life are his own. That would be like inviting people to a formal wedding or a black tie event. If your invited to a black tie event and you get an invite that clearly states 'formal dress required.' Will you show up in a tee shirt and cargo shorts? Can you seriously expect to be let in if you were told you needed a tux? Of course not, why? Because the people who put on this formal wedding or event went to the expense of providing an formal atmosphere, and wanted to preserve it by requiring all who attend to be dressed to match.

We are not born wearing the tuxes needed to attend the party God is throwing, but He will give you one if you simply a/s/k for it.

[truthBtold]

orangebox21 u seem to know alot about what ur god wants, needs,and means... how can u say that.. personal experience/revelation? If so its not gonna work. Prove ur god or a god. Then we can continue. Im still waiting for some proof. . Attributes are garbage because I can say the same thing about anyone.

[Minimalist]

Xtianity's god can go fuck himself.

[Drich]

Oooo, looks like we are going to have some fun!

I think the answer to this lies in the function of the stories in the old testament.

where in the OT? by what you have written here it seem the 'stories' you refer to can be found in the first 5 books. Do you look beyond? are you saying the whole OT from start to finish is made up?

Unlike Christians, the Jews believed that a person's wrongdoing would be punished in this life, not in any hereafter.

Actually by the time of Christ the Jewish belief in an after life was well established. The Pharisees represented the leaders who among other things believed in an afterlife/Resurection. The Saducees (the ruling class) did not. They are the one who believed as you have outlined above. (which is why there are sad, you see?)

And if a whole people were guilty of error, the whole would be punished in this world. In part, but there are two primary verses the Pharrisees stood behind in their teaching. The first is: "Thy dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise, awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust, for thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades" (Isaiah 26:19); and the second: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence" (Daniel 12:2).

In these two verses not only can we say that they believed as you have described in your above statement but also in a more 'christian' way, in that we are indivisually responsiable for our sins in this life. (this passage in Daniel also dispels the idea that the Jews did not believe in Hell.)

It's a cultural identity myth; it's purpose is to keep the people together by motivating them all to believe the same cultural stories. The Hebrews most likely were a strain of Semite intermixed with all the other breeds of humans occupying Canaan, and so stories evolved to make them feel special and obligated to care about that specialness. The carrot is a poor long term solution to keep a people united; the stick works much better. So they have a myth of oppression (Exodus) and of triumph (Joshua) and tales of bad, fallen away Jews being punished, and good, united Jews prospering.

there are many others examples dotting Jewish history upto the time of Christ are you saying all of them were made up?

Just as in biological evolution, those Canaanite Jews who developed such myths stayed together and by staying together, continued the myths; those who didn't, weren't able to stay together as a people, even though they likely had their stories too — their stories didn't exert a force to keep them together as a culture, retelling the stories over and over again.

Actually there was a great divide after the reign of Solomon in the Jews (2kings) where there were even acts of civial war amongst the 12 tribes, not to mention many instances of defeat slavery and occupation. How does this figure into your Darwinian type model? where is was unity and safty in numbers that saved these people's culture from being assimilated into their many conquers.

So the ultimate answer is that, from the perspective of social psychology, myths of redemption and creating the idea that by being united you can be saved from something, those memes worked better in terms of perpetuating themselves by encouraging the hearer to a) think of his group membership as valuable (redemptive), and b) encouraged him to repeat and celebrate those stories. Other memes simply didn't succeed at keeping themselves alive in a cohesive, unified culture in the same way.

But the Jews have always been divided from the time of David and beyond. They rarly come together, when they do God blesses them and they do great things but eventually infighting and pride wins out and division sets in again.
There is no reason these twelve tribes should have retained their coheasion for as long as they have. But they have, which is a testament to God's covenant with Abraham.

[Angrboda]

There is no reason these twelve tribes should have retained their coheasion for as long as they have. But they have, which is a testament to God's covenant with Abraham.

I couldn't have given a better example of this meme encouraging adherence to the myth if I had written it myself.

(And for what it's worth, the twelve tribes didn't remain cohesive, several of those tribes are completely lost to us, showing that you're just quoting myth, which is at odds with history.)

[Minimalist]

The twelve tribes are as mythical as all the rest of it.

Archaeology now shows that the northern and southern kingdoms arose independently and when the Assyrians overran the northern kingdom they deported about 10% of the population not 100% leaving the rest there to keep on being Canaanites...which is what both polities were.

You can't give them an inch, Ras...

[orangebox21]

orangebox21 u seem to know alot about what ur god wants, needs,and means... how can u say that.. personal experience/revelation?

Revelation. But not some kind of mystical experience, I read the Bible and it teaches me about God. Remember the context of this thread. It's about the God of Christianity. The answers are in the Bible. Much like if you want to learn about math you read a math book.

Prove ur god or a god. Then we can continue. Im still waiting for some proof.

Are you looking for proof that I'm god or a god in order for us to have a conversation about what the bible says? Or are you looking for proof of God? Or did you mean something else entirely? Looking for a little clarification of you're statement.

[Minimalist]

Who gives a shit what the bible says? It was written by corrupt priests looking to control a nation of primitive goat herders.

You need to demonstrate that your god ( or any god...I won't quibble ) exists. And pointing at your bible is not the way to do it.

[orangebox21]

Who gives a shit what the bible says? It was written by corrupt priests looking to control a nation of primitive goat herders.

You need to demonstrate that your god ( or any god...I won't quibble ) exists. And pointing at your bible is not the way to do it.

There are plenty of threads devoted to the question of proof. The conversation here is a specific question about Christianity's God not proof of said God.