Is it sexist to criticize feminism?

[kılıç_mehmet]

See? Feminism shows all the characteristics of a self-righteous internationalist ideology.

Then you are in good company eh kilic?

I beg your pardon?

[Lemonvariable72]

Well, feminism is the belief in equality for men and women. If you're not for the equality of men and women, you are by definition sexist. Misandry, by the way, is not feminism, even if it takes that name.

Do not get me wrong, do not support the oppression of any group because of their physicality be it men, women, blacks, whites, Latinos etc. However I am skeptical when I hear people say feminism is campaigning for equality, as they don't seem to ever campaign for issues that face men such ad birth control. However I'm perfectly okay with the fact that feminists fight for the rights of women, but fighting for the rights of women is not always fighting for equality. And I'm not just referring to the misandry in radical feminism, but also the rampant conspiracy theories and the common belief that women that disagree with them are brainwashed.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Well, feminism is the belief in equality for men and women. If you're not for the equality of men and women, you are by definition sexist. Misandry, by the way, is not feminism, even if it takes that name.

Do not get me wrong, do not support the oppression of any group because of their physicality be it men, women, blacks, whites, Latinos etc. However I am skeptical when I hear people say feminism is campaigning for equality, as they don't seem to ever campaign for issues that face men such ad birth control. However I'm perfectly okay with the fact that feminists fight for the rights of women, but fighting for the rights of women is not always fighting for equality. And I'm not just referring to the misandry in radical feminism, but also the rampant conspiracy theories and the common belief that women that disagree with them are brainwashed.

Its called feminism for a reason.

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Do not get me wrong, do not support the oppression of any group because of their physicality be it men, women, blacks, whites, Latinos etc. However I am skeptical when I hear people say feminism is campaigning for equality, as they don't seem to ever campaign for issues that face men such ad birth control. However I'm perfectly okay with the fact that feminists fight for the rights of women, but fighting for the rights of women is not always fighting for equality. And I'm not just referring to the misandry in radical feminism, but also the rampant conspiracy theories and the common belief that women that disagree with them are brainwashed.

The patriarchy is real, and society does train women and men to think in certain way about gender roles and such. I wouldn't call it brainwashing per se, though. The patriarchy isn't really even about sex/gender but about class. Men are the privileged class, and women are the oppressed. This is why women tend to have lower SES (socioeconomic status) than men all over the world. And the quickest way to combat poverty is to focus on the education of women and give them reproductive options (namely, birth control) and MAKE SURE THEY USE IT.

[TaraJo]

Well, feminism is the belief in equality for men and women. If you're not for the equality of men and women, you are by definition sexist.

If more feminists stuck within that definition, I would have far less to complain about with feminism. Instead, I get a bunch of girls chastising everyone for having privilege and throwing around the word "rape" like it's going out of style. Not to mention, in a lot of feminist spaces, if you ever dare to talk about a subject where men are at a disadvantage, there's a good chance you'll face nothing but hostility for it. Addressing womens issues and ignoring mens issues isn't working for equality; it's working for a matriarchy.

Misandry, by the way, is not feminism, even if it takes that name.

Don't tell that to me; tell that to the feminists who are misandrists. And don't tell me they aren't out there, either. I've seen way too much of it to believe that: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/octavia-...92843.html

For the record, I believe in gender equality as much as anyone and I think there's a lot of gendered bullshit out there. But I'm still hesitant to accept the title 'feminist' because I've seen so much bad behavior done in the name of feminism and I don't want to be associated with it.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Do not get me wrong, do not support the oppression of any group because of their physicality be it men, women, blacks, whites, Latinos etc. However I am skeptical when I hear people say feminism is campaigning for equality, as they don't seem to ever campaign for issues that face men such ad birth control. However I'm perfectly okay with the fact that feminists fight for the rights of women, but fighting for the rights of women is not always fighting for equality. And I'm not just referring to the misandry in radical feminism, but also the rampant conspiracy theories and the common belief that women that disagree with them are brainwashed.

The patriarchy is real, and society does train women and men to think in certain way about gender roles and such. I wouldn't call it brainwashing per se, though. The patriarchy isn't really even about sex/gender but about class. Men are the privileged class, and women are the oppressed. This is why women tend to have lower SES (socioeconomic status) than men all over the world. And the quickest way to combat poverty is to focus on the education of women and give them reproductive options (namely, birth control) and MAKE SURE THEY USE IT.

See?
Straight out of the commu...sorry, feminist manifesto.
Wrong on so many levels, it hurts.

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Straight out of the commu...sorry, feminist manifesto.
Wrong on so many levels, it hurts.

You seem to think communism is a bad thing. Obviously you've never seen later Star Trek TV series/movies, because their future society (on Earth and other Federation planets) is communist and they have achieved peace on Earth, and life is pretty damn good.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Straight out of the commu...sorry, feminist manifesto.
Wrong on so many levels, it hurts.

You seem to think communism is a bad thing. Obviously you've never seen later Star Trek TV series/movies, because their future society (on Earth and other Federation planets) is communist and they have achieved peace on Earth, and life is pretty damn good.

Well, it really doesn't matter what I think of communism, that's not the issue. I merely point out to the similarities in terms of mentality.
As you see, both ideologies start out by proclaiming a side as the victim, and the other as the oppressor. If you're not the victim, you must be the oppressor.

[Angrboda]

It depends on the specifics of the criticism. Much of the criticism I hear, supposedly of 'feminism', is little more than thinly disguised ad hominem against specific feminists or specific types within feminism. Neither are 'sexist' so much as they are simply fallacious and stupid.

Defining feminism for the non-feminist may be as difficult as finding an acceptable definition of atheism for non-atheists. Certainly the feminism of a Wollstonecraft or a Steinem or a Watson are all going to appear different birds depending on what the critic aims to condemn. My understanding, which may just be my personal definition, is that feminism includes any woman-centered philosophy or movement aimed at establishing parity between the sexes in terms of participation in society. This usually takes the form of emphasizing structured ways in which lack of parity between the sexes is maintained, and thus tends to concentrate on undermining systematic mechanisms that support and maintain male privilege. I would say being sexist comes in if you directly or indirectly are trying to support the lack of parity between the sexes. And that may be one of those "eye of the beholder" type of things that one woman's sexist support of male privilege is another's common sense acceptance of practical reality.

So there are two questions here. Is the criticism of the position, or of the person? And regardless, is there an element of sexism implicit in either the criticism, the goal of the critique, or in the act of criticizing?

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Well, it really doesn't matter what I think of communism, that's not the issue. I merely point out to the similarities in terms of mentality.
As you see, both ideologies start out by proclaiming a side as the victim, and the other as the oppressor. If you're not the victim, you must be the oppressor.

Yup. What Freud identified as the master/slave dynamic and Marx called the bourgeoisie and the proletariat is plenty much the nature of classism, which is prevalent in our kind of culture, which inherently is less egalitarian than say, a hunter-gatherer culture.