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what should i even say?
February 9, 2014 at 10:47 pm
i always get destroyed in arguments, mostly i think cus my low self esteem, and because i get anxiety and have no idea what to say and just pretend to agree with people to end the argument.
ie: my christian friends were all like "without religion there would be no morality" and atheism is the religion of having no morality....and im just no atheism is just not beliving in god. and then they tell me to read articles of famous christian philosophers :S
and then he was like "so what makes morality? what makes killing somebody wrong?" and im like...cus idk and idk i hate talking about religion crap cus they always try to put my beliefs down and say things that make me cringe but im too polite to say anything, but otherwise the guild is amazing for gaming and lotta helpful people for most the part :S
so idk what i should do....do any of u people play guild wars 2 on sanctum of rall by chance? lol
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RE: what should i even say?
February 9, 2014 at 10:53 pm
I have the same problem sometimes. Don't be hard on yourself.
As far as morality, I would ask them what they classify morality as, because the god of the bible was often brutal, cruel, and heartless. Not a good measure of morality.
Many of the laws we have as humans that structure a society go against the bible's teachings. Basically, to me, morality is determined by how we treat one another as people. Don't hurt each other. That can be decided without a book of fairy tales.
Do some research, friend. Arm yourself with knowledge.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Edward Gibbon
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RE: what should i even say?
February 9, 2014 at 10:56 pm
(February 9, 2014 at 10:47 pm)leodeo Wrote: i always get destroyed in arguments, mostly i think cus my low self esteem, and because i get anxiety and have no idea what to say and just pretend to agree with people to end the argument.
ie: my christian friends were all like "without religion there would be no morality" and atheism is the religion of having no morality....and im just no atheism is just not beliving in god. and then they tell me to read articles of famous christian philosophers :S
and then he was like "so what makes morality? what makes killing somebody wrong?" and im like...cus idk and idk i hate talking about religion crap cus they always try to put my beliefs down and say things that make me cringe but im too polite to say anything, but otherwise the guild is amazing for gaming and lotta helpful people for most the part :S
so idk what i should do....do any of u people play guild wars 2 on sanctum of rall by chance? lol
Whenever I hear the bullshit about not being moral without religion I generally comment about how it's a wonder that many CHristians can be moral despite their "holy" book, and ask them if they've actually read the whole bible.
Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:
"You did WHAT? With WHO? WHERE???"
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RE: what should i even say?
February 10, 2014 at 12:21 am
Ah, morality's one of the easiest things to talk about as an atheist, so long as you don't fall into the theistic "objective morality!" trap.
For my first trick, Euthyphro's Dilemma: Is god's morality good because he commands it? If so, then morality is merely obedience to authority. If not, then clearly there's a standard of morality separate from god, and he's just the messenger for that.
After that, it's just a matter of reminding your christian dudes how little they actually follow their bible (slavery's never condemned as immoral in there, and yet they somehow know it is, I'm betting.)
And we finish with the real source of morality: the world around us! We can map out how we react to stimuli in our environment, and work out a rough, objective guide to what's beneficial and harmful to humans from that. From such things spring complex moral systems.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: what should i even say?
February 10, 2014 at 12:47 am
We can't be good at everything. There's plenty of stuff I'm not good at. Recognizing is half the battle. The other half is having the courage to accept the consequences. If you struggle in argument, there's nothing wrong with that. Just acknowledge it openly and honestly and move on from there. Knowledge and technique are useful, but honesty and courage are what matters. That'll turn heads more than any clever repartee.
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RE: what should i even say?
February 10, 2014 at 1:12 am
The first thing to do is arm yourself with knowledge. Get information from both sides. Know the apologetics, know how to combat the usual logical fallacies. You'd be amazed how interesting this stuff is.
The second thing is to try and calm down. When I first started these discourses, I would get so emotionally charged that I couldn't think.
Being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean you have to be interested in debating religious people or defending your lack of belief. You can just stick to your guns and dig your heels in. To be honest, though, that sort of makes you no better than a lot of theists who do the same thing. If you truly want to get better at this and develop an ability to defend yourself, it is like any other skill---it has to be honed.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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RE: what should i even say?
February 10, 2014 at 4:40 am
(February 10, 2014 at 12:21 am)Esquilax Wrote: Ah, morality's one of the easiest things to talk about as an atheist, so long as you don't fall into the theistic "objective morality!" trap. Awww... objective morality is awesome, man!
It's like the objective law of a country.
It's the accepted morality of a group of people.
Subjective morality is the morality of an individual.... which may or not may not be aligned with the objective morality of the people around him/her.
Of course, theists will refuse this definition of objective... but, to be truthful, it's the only definition that's honest. Theirs presupposes something and that's one presupposition too many.
When discussing with them, bear in mind that they're being dishonest, either knowingly, or unaware of it.
If they are knowingly dishonest, there's nothing you can do... these are con men. Better avoid them and warn all your friends about them.
If they are unaware of their dishonesty, then there is a chance that you can show them the con...
Rationalizations may crack the nut a bit, but it is one damn hard nut, so, for the most part, whatever you say will not carry your point across.
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RE: what should i even say?
February 10, 2014 at 5:07 am
The trick with objective / subjective morality is that it gets you coming and going. If you make the case for subjective morality (which is fine), one cannot then make the case that the bible is objectively immoral, merely immoral by standards.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
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RE: what should i even say?
February 10, 2014 at 5:21 am
(February 10, 2014 at 5:07 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: The trick with objective / subjective morality is that it gets you coming and going. If you make the case for subjective morality (which is fine), one cannot then make the case that the bible is objectively immoral, merely immoral by standards.
Wait, how is that coming and going? Can't I argue for an objective morality that's godless and come out okay? 
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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RE: what should i even say?
February 10, 2014 at 5:22 am
Don't be too hard on yourself. I'm far from being great at arguing with theists, I have a tendency to fall for emotional/rage traps; like their claims of knowledge over me or atheists in general, or what I actually believe, and I'm far more adept at conversation over the internet than I am in person. It's a matter of knowing what you believe and why, and learning more if you're so inclined to argue your position.
I defer to Esq's advice on morality, as I agree and he's explained it far better than I could have.
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