Christianity almost impossible without indoctrination

[Sword of Christ]

God is depicted like that. He is depicted "walking around" and "making clothes" (Gen 3:8,21).

He is described in human terms at some points but that's just a bit of artistic license. You for instance Ezekiels Vision.




And of course the classic depiction of the Holy Trinity.




Even the Sistine Chapel.




God is not a physical being and he is not within limited in time or space so he can't literally be depicted as being anything at all and the Bible is excruciatingly clear on this point. So this is artistic licence that makes some kind of a theological point only. This God is not the kind of gods the ancient Greeks believed in and depicted in human form.

He threatens to "hide his face" from the nation of Israel

No no no when you see anything in about "the face of God" or Moses catching a glimpse of Gods back or anything like that..I'll let Jesus explain.





What you have there is an awesomely cool mystical kind of thing, the people who wrote all stuff this knew damn what they were on about. This is a depiction of a reality, not the everyday physical kind reality we're used to seeing but described in terms we may be able understand on some level. That's essentially what the prophets did they translated the unknowable into the knowable.

Trying to argue that Yahweh is different from other gods because he's invisible is hysterical. It's also dumb. And also wrong.

The Bible make helps to make the unseenable something that can be seen as did Gods incarnation into history as the man Jesus Christ. If you want to know who God really is you can refer directly to him who both God and man as one complete whole. Christopher Hitchen's compare Christianity to a celestial North Korea but what he was doing is comparing Kim Jong Il to Jesus Christ and claiming the two be in some way equally just as bad as each other. This is a little bit of a stretch imo.

[Bad Wolf]

I find it hard to believe that you are just missing my posts SoC

[Tonus]

He is described in human terms at some points but that's just a bit of artistic license.

With very few exceptions, he is only ever described in human terms. I am aware that the descriptions of body parts are not always meant to be literal (in some instances it cannot be ruled out that the writers intended this) but gods are nearly always depicted as humans on an imaginary power trip. The Biblical god is no different. In the OT he seems a lot like the kind of daydream a bullied kid would have, where he becomes an unstoppable ass-kicking machine who lays a savage beat-down on anyone who stands in his way (as long as they don't have iron chariots, anyway).

In the NT he's more grown up, using his aWesomE DeBate SkillZ to verbally slap down his opponents, occasionally putting on a display of God Powah to remind them that just because he's showing some restraint doesn't mean he can't lay down a vicious bitchslap if he wanted. His opposers only get the upper hand because he arranges it, and in the end he laughs off their best effort and leaves them with the reminder that, like the Terminator, he'll be back.

He's the ultimate revenge fantasy in both original and updated forms. The revenge fantasy remains a very popular genre in storytelling to this day, and lots of movies still use it to sell tickets. Why? Because it's such a basic human experience.

[Faith No More]

...and the Bible is excruciatingly clear on this point.

I'm no biblical scholar and have only read a tiny fraction of the bible, but if there's one thing I can ascertain from the various scripture debates I have witnessed, it is that the bible is not "excruciatingly clear" on anything.

[The Reality Salesman01]

Almost impossible? Maybe, but it's clearly possible.

Atheists tend to be those that didn't get brought up with religious parents, but there are some who were Christians and now lack belief.

I was raised in Jesus Town USA (Texas). With 2 devout Christian parents, the belief was much harder to shake than I imagine it being for the lesser brainwashed of those who convert away from their faith. Of course, to Christians, I was just never truly faithful, and I get the "No true Scotsman" argument. But I assure you, that is a bunk response. I was raised with unwavering devotion and loyalty to a God I was convinced existed. I was entirely willing to receive any message that God had for me. But it became apparent as a young man, that I had been fooled by others, as well as myself. Anyone who says that a Christian turned Atheist was never really a true Christian to begin with is attempting to dismiss my allegiance in order to substantiate the validity of their own self-proclaimed relationship with God. I imagine that this is akin to anything one may decide to invest in. Economist have shown that people tend to assign higher worth values to things after they've purchased them, and things they may have found to discourage them from their purchase before they bought it, are more easily overlooked once they own it. Someone trying to sway them away from the amount of value they've placed on the product can be easily dismissed on the grounds that they don't understand because they don't have one themselves. If the person trying to sway the the person has in fact once owned one, they too can be dismissed on the grounds that they either didn't appreciate it, or didn't own the SAME one. At any rate, the value is assigned by the individual, and very little outside information is considered in the assessment once the investment has been made.

Christians have all been brought up by religious parents and/or school indoctrination. There are none that were brought up without any indoctrination.

Sorry, but this one is just not true either. It's true for a large amount of people, especially here in America, but it's a fallacy to operate under this assumption on the whole. People have found Christianity within societies and households dominated by incompatible religions, and vice-versa.

Now there will be occasional exceptions to this, though a lot of the "I used to be an Atheist then I saw the light" brigade don't seem to know what an Atheist actually is and were brought up Christians and have always believed a God exists. There are also a few genuine Atheist turn Christians. From my experience they are very very rare (I've never met one), though you can find the odd story on the internet.

There are all sort of people that claim Atheism for different reasons. But in the end, an Atheist is just someone that doesn't believe in God. I would agree that Atheists that were previously indoctrinated Christians will be a very hard close on any conversion pitch, but there are easier targets out there that are very naive and susceptible to their tactics. An indoctrinated Christian turned Atheist is probably akin to a carnivore turned vegetarian after they've strolled through a cattle slaughter house for a "How it's made special". They ate meat at one point, were very devout meat-eaters, but after watching cattle get dismembered and maimed and the unforgettable stench of mutilated flesh that consumed the room. That sort of vegetarian is probably going to be a bit harder to convert than your average Joe that is merely a vegetarian by his never experiencing the taste of a juicy steak.

(P.S. I love steak. In my experience, you can take the Christian out of Texas, but you can't take the love for beef out of the Texan!)

...but you get the idea.

[Rahul]

I love the smell of a slaughterhouse in the morning. Smells like lunchtime.

[Ryantology]

I can prove the books made the same kinds of arguments and points I'm making. But it was an atheist who initially accused theists/believers of not reading anything beyond what they already believe and so stifling their knowledge and living in ignorance of the facts. The fact is atheists never read these kinds of books and it shows in their arguments. Theists by contrast are often keen to read books like the God Delusion and God is not Great.

We don't read your books because they have nothing of value to offer. Apologetics is just about the most useless practice imaginable. With no evidence of your god's existence, debating the particulars of what he may or may not have said is a waste of time.

[Cinjin]

jesuschristsuckinmarysdick
there's a LOT in this thread

[Chad32]

It's been active enough to be hard to keep up with recently.