Why are other civilizations ignored in the Bible?

[Chad32]

I'm not sure why anyone would think freedom of speech is a christian worldview. Christianity believes that heresy, speaking against the lord their god is the worst sin imaginable. The one unforgivable sin, in fact. I don't see anything a good society needs that originated from christianity. What good parts in there are mostly taken from older sources.

Yes, the horrible islamic countries, where they worship the same deity as christians do, and run a theocracy like some christians over here would like. We can see for ourselves what it would be like living under such a system, and that is why we are grateful that this country was founded under secular values like separation of church and state.

I'm not sure what part of the bible guarantees freedom of speech or religion or liberty to all people of all backgrounds and beliefs.

Go to Saudi Arabia or North Korea. Live over there for a while and see how you like it. I promise you that you would be begging to come back over here and live with us poor ignorant Christians. I promise you.

Do not take my word for it. Just go.

I know that, as flawed as our country is, it's better than other places. Just not because of "christian values". If christians had their way, we would be more like islamic theocracies. You'd just be calling your god God instead of Allah.

[DeistPaladin]

The teachings of Christ are the very things that led to the abuses of Christianity. I thought focusing on the source might be a logical way to narrow down the scope of our discussion. However, if you insist, I'll try to give as brief an overview of the reasons Christianity is so dangerous and destructive as a belief system and why the people who did evil in the name of Christ were not perverting Christian doctrine but rather expressing Christian doctrine.

Let's start with the fundamental message of Christianity and how it can inspire others to evil. There are two very important factors:

The Two Dangerous Fundamental Teachings of Christianity
1. Only Two Possible Masters
Christianity proposes a worldview where there are just two forces in the universe playing tug-o-war over our souls: Jesus and Satan. It follows by process of elimination that anyone not in your camp must be either working for the devil or duped by the devil. This is why you hear fundamentalists using "Satanic" or "Satanism" to describe anything not in their narrow worldview. These paranoid and xenophobic expressions are the predictable outcome given the delusional architecture of Christianity.

Sad fact is that if you believe that your neighbors are in league with the devil, you are capable of doing anything to them. Demonization, whether literal in the case of Christianity or figuratively, is the first step in breaking down our empathy for our fellow human beings and committing atrocities against them.

2. The Faith-Based Scheme of Salvation
Christianity then escalates problem #1 with a faith-based scheme of salvation and a terrifying delusion to those who are not successfully indoctrinated. Those who do not submit to Christianity are said to be condemned for all eternity.

This makes the stakes as high as they can be. If torturing an unrepentant non-believer or killing them helps to prevent their corrupting the minds of your children, isn't that a good thing? What's a little murder if all you're doing is sending them to Hell a little ahead of schedule and, in the process, you get to save hundreds of souls for all eternity, some of whom may be your loved ones.

This two-part problem with the Christian afterlife helps us understand how it is that we've seen such atrocities in the very name of the one who would commit the ultimate atrocities against non-believers in the afterlife, not just killing them but torturing them for all eternity. Christ can preach some niceties like "love thy neighbor" but at the end of the day, the ultimate fate of every soul depends on submission and gullibility, not good deeds.

And why should we expect anything else from religion? Practitioners of priestcraft will speak of peace and love but their ultimate concern is over victimless crimes such as blasphemy, idolatry and apostasy. Read the Bible or Koran and you read of a god who's concern over "evils" is really concern over refusing to submit. Read the Ten Commandments and you'll see the first four your god thinks of have nothing to do with morality at all.

But don't think I only reflect on the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Protestant atrocities like the Salem Witch Trials and other dramatic examples of Christian evil. The day-to-day examples have been taxing enough on humanity.

First, let's discuss how Christianity has stunted civilizations social growth:

1. Slavery
Christianity promoted the institution of slavery and helped sustain it until relatively recent history.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling ...as you would obey Christ.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.

Titus 2:9 Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect

1Peter 2:18 Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not just those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh.

Jesus himself gave the nod to slavery, using slaves frequently in his parables and even suggesting how they might deserve to be beaten:

Luke 12:47 And the servant which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself... shall be beaten with many stripes.

There are no Bible verses I could find that call for the abolition of slavery. If Jesus were really God, he should have known better. He could have commanded the end of the practice but chose not to.

Divine Right of Kings
Kings though history have found Christianity a useful means of justifying their rule over their people. The Bible itself makes the case for the Divine Right of Kings:

Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Sexism
Christianity has helped to sustain sexism in our world and the perpetuates second class citizenship for women:

1 Tim 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Anti-Semitic Bigotry
Christians often like to pretend that Hitler wasn't a True Christian ™ or even suggest that he was a secret atheist but look at the people that the Nazis persecuted (gays, Jews and occult-practicing Gypsies) and you see that these are the same people Christianity had persecuted for 2000 years. The Holocaust was the culmination of the violent bigotry that had festered in Europe since Paul wrote his letters. In fact, some parts of the NT sound like they were lifted from Mein Kampf.

1Thes 2:14-15 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Titus 1:10-16 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Gay Bashing
Christianity has persecuted homosexuals throughout its history:

Romans 1:26-32 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The Demonization of Sex
We are sexual beings. Sex is not merely required for our survival as a species but the desire for sexual gratification is so hard-wired into our being that it's one of the most powerful motivations in our nature. Arguably, coming to terms with our sexuality in a healthy was is essential to our spiritual well being. A divinely inspired religion should understand this. The NT fails miserably, dealing with this topic with a broad brush and advocating celibacy over even sex within marriage.

Paul wrote that marriage was the second best option for those "who could not contain" (1Cor 7:9) but that celibacy was the best option:

1 COR 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

And Jesus himself advocates castration to gain salvation:

Matt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

These are dangerous words for a guy who commands we cut off body parts to avoid sin.

Matt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

The modern applications of this twisted worldview can be found in the avocation of Abstinence Only Sex Education. Where this policy is adopted, teen pregnancy rises and STDs spread more rapidly. See the US House of Representatives report, "The Content of Federally Funded Abstinence-Only Education Programs".

Anti-Science
Christianity destroyed the Roman Empire, sucking the life out of it like a parasite, and plunged Europe into the Dark Ages. It was only when the stranglehold of Christianity was finally broken that secularists could usher in the Age of Enlightenment and subsequently the Modern Age. We see the effect of Christianity's opposition to science in nearly every advance from the Heliocentric Theory to the Theory of Evolution.

"We are indeed not ignorant, that the circut of the heavens is finite and that the earth, like a little globe, is placed in the centre."
-John Calvin, Commentary on Genesis

"If there were real proof that the sun is in the center of the universe ...and that the sun does not go round the earth... then we shall have great difficulty in explaining the passages of scripture which appear to teach the contrary."
-Cardinal Bellermine, Church Theologian

Today, we're fighting another battle, this time over Evolution. Gradually, Christians are learning to dismiss scriptural teachings to the contrary as "metaphor" much the same way they have to accept that the earth goes round the sun. Though the history of science, Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming the whole way only to try to take credit for it once the issue is settled.

The Future
Christians have always believed we're living in the end times. Even those who wrote in what has become the NT thought so. Just consider the famous passage that Christians regard as the foretelling of "The Rapture".

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul and other authors of the NT thought the end would come in their lifetimes:

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

This belief was merely crazy when only God could end the world. Now humans can:

"We can no longer ignore the fact that billions of our neighbors believe in the metaphysics of martyrdom because our neighbors are armed with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons."
-Sam Harris, The End of Faith

9/11 should have been a wake up call for humanity. We can no longer afford to tread softly around religious sensibilities but must call out absurd beliefs. This is especially true when these beliefs predict that the best thing that could happen is the end of the world, because that will precede the return of Christ. Doomsday cults are not helpful when a society has developed the kind of technology that can destroy civilization. We need a worldview that seeks to create a sustainable future.

[discipulus]

The teachings of Christ are the very things that led to the abuses of Christianity.

You wasted your time unfortunately. Not only is the above clearly false but we are to discuss the effects that followers of Christ have produced regarding the care and nurturing of the children of the world's nations as opposed to those who are atheists.

When you finally decide to respond to the topic above, please do so by starting it in a new thread.

Thank you.

[DeistPaladin]

You wasted your time unfortunately. We are to discuss the effects that followers of Christ have produced regarding the care and nurturing of the children of the world's nations as opposed to those who are atheists.

I did. Respond when you are able.

[discipulus]

You wasted your time unfortunately. We are to discuss the effects that followers of Christ have produced regarding the care and nurturing of the children of the world's nations as opposed to those who are atheists.

I did. Respond when you are able.

No you did not sir. You posted a bunch of rather ridiculous material and interpretations on Christ's teachings which is not what the discussion is about. Nor did you do it in a separate new thread as we both agreed would happen.

I want some hard facts and evidence about the contributions of atheists to the children of the world's nations. We are defending our own side, you yours, and mine mine.

All I have seen you do is pick some scripture out of context and give your interpretation of said scriptures. I have seen nothing on what atheists have done and are doing for the children..... which is what you are supposed to be talking about.

And please no more 9/11 stuff. It was supposedly Islamic terrorists who did it, not Christians.

If you need me to I will start the new thread and I will go first just so you can understand what it is we are supposed to be debating. As it stands your entire post is simply a red herring.

A simple yes or no will suffice....

[DeistPaladin]

I want some hard facts and evidence about the contributions of atheists to the children of the world's nations. We are defending our own side, you yours, and mine mine.

Excuse me but the point you wanted to debate was my assertion that Christianity was a dangerous, destructive belief system, that it has been a disaster for humanity and is maladaptive to our survival as a civilization.

I never even mentioned "atheism".

I'm not even an atheist myself.

Let's go to the tape, shall we....

You originally proposed a debate on the topic of (post #314)

Now that I think about it, it seems to me only right that we debate that one thing, that one misgiving that you feel is your biggest objection to Jesus Christ.

OK, then I replied... (post #326)

Personally, I'm more concerned with the consequences of this belief system. Let me not mince words, Christianity is a dangerous, destructive belief system that has been the greatest disaster to befall humanity and is wholly maladaptive to the survival of human civilization in the future.

Then you said... (post #331)

Ok. We can debate that. I believe the exact opposite.

So, that was the topic I agreed to debate but I had some misgivings because the topic was broad, which required the extensive post above. With your insistence, I went through the effort.

Your only reply was to dismiss it with a casual expression of disagreement. You've provided no reasons that I am wrong on any point, nor have you defended the Christians I quoted nor have you provided any evidence or arguments yet except your twisted misunderstanding of evolution and your strawman of atheism and the science of evolution.

Now, you want to perform a little bait-and-switch where you ask me to justify "atheism" when I never even mentioned atheism nor am I one myself.

This is highly dishonest as a debate tactic, to say nothing of your logical fallacies of bare assertions that Christianity has created a free society or your strawmen about evolution.

[discipulus]

This is highly dishonest as a debate tactic, to say nothing of your logical fallacies of bare assertions that Christianity has created a free society or your strawmen about evolution.

And what of my post #366?

You had to have seen it because you quoted portions from it twice.

Not only that but you then posted your red herring reply in this thread which is something I thought we had agreed we would not do?

You are a Deist I guess. So lets hear it. What have Deists done in service to the children of this world's nations? How have they made this world a better place for children?

That is what you are supposed to be discussing. You seem strangely silent on the matter........

I will start a new thread tomorrow some time. If you want to debate me there then fine. The topic will be : "The Children of the nations....what the followers of Christ have done for them."

Hope to see you there. As it stands, if you want me to address the post you typed with the scriptures taken out of context do me a big favor, supply the context along with the scripture and give the chapter and verse numbers too along with the translation you are using. Thanks.

Oh yea and by the way, copy and paste it to a new thread.

[Rahul]

[truthBtold]

This is highly dishonest as a debate tactic, to say nothing of your logical fallacies of bare assertions that Christianity has created a free society or your strawmen about evolution.

And what of my post #366?

You had to have seen it because you quoted portions from it twice.

Not only that but you then posted your red herring reply in this thread which is something I thought we had agreed we would not do?

You are a Deist I guess. So lets hear it. What have Deists done in service to the children of this world's nations? How have they made this world a better place for children?

That is what you are supposed to be discussing. You seem strangely silent on the matter........

I will start a new thread tomorrow some time. If you want to debate me there then fine. The topic will be : "The Children of the nations....what the followers of Christ have done for them."

Hope to see you there. As it stands, if you want me to address the post you typed with the scriptures taken out of context do me a big favor, supply the context along with the scripture and give the chapter and verse numbers too along with the translation you are using. Thanks.

Oh yea and by the way, copy and paste it to a new thread.

Um sir.. dont forget to start a thread on miracles. .. yum yum ...

[DeistPaladin]

And what of my post #366?

That's where you successfully pulled your bait and switch. I wasn't reading it carefully and going with the original topic you agreed to.

That'll teach me to watch you shifty Christians a little more carefully. You people have been trying to pull fast ones for 2000 years now. I should know better.

You are a Deist I guess. So lets hear it. What have Deists done in service to the children of this world's nations? How have they made this world a better place for children?

Here you go. And it's in its own thread to, just like how you like it.

That is what you are supposed to be discussing. You seem strangely silent on the matter........

I was talking about what we originally agreed to discuss before your bait and switch.