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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 2:34 am
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2014 at 2:38 am by Shell B.)
(February 24, 2014 at 2:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Good thing such choices aren't something that come up in reality. So I dunno why it's even being stated. These aren't decisions that have to be made or will have to be made, so...why are they being mentioned, except than to needlessly point out your stance on what your classification addiction has in regards to priority for treatment?
To point out that there is a middle ground on this. Why is every other classification that is copacetic in this thread have relevance, but mine is brushed off because it doesn't come up in real life? Neither do half the scenarios mentioned here. People rarely go to the hospital for addiction so much as they go for addiction related issues. Do you have an argument against my opinion or do you just want to tell me how irrelevant it is?
(February 24, 2014 at 2:16 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Should we shuffle all people who harm themselves due to controllable factors to the back of the line? Because, I don't ever want to be the person who makes that decision.
Yeah, if there were a shortage of medical care absolutely. How fair is it for someone who is suffering because of the awful hand life has dealt have to suffer and wait so someone else can get help with something that is entirely their fault? What kind of addicted adult would want to get ahead of say a child with leukemia?
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 3:05 am
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2014 at 3:24 am by Creed of Heresy.)
Semantics, Shell B. Semantics. Can you please name these scenarios of which you speak?
Also, I am bull-charging Ego too, don't worry. Personal experiences and all that. To be fair, I don't think any addict would want to have rehab in place of a leukemia patient being treated, either. Me and that silly little idealistic spark...
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 3:25 am
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2014 at 3:29 am by Shell B.)
Well, we could start with this imagined persecution of addicts. When a town isn't offering enough resources, it's because, "Oh, they just hate addicts." It would do a lot of people well to remember that even people who are not addicted aren't getting special clinics to help them out. People who are dying through no fault of their own aren't getting help. Children who need surgeries so they can walk are having to collect money with their families to make it happen. Explain to me again why it is persecution when you're an addict?
It's not semantics. I happen to know that part of the path to getting out of addiction is take ownership of it and stop blaming it on other people, society and every fucking thing else that works as a scapegoat. What is wrong with pointing out that it might just be a good idea for addicts to do that and stop clogging up the medical community? Is that so wrong? If so, explain to me why that is, please. If it is no one else's fault that an addict is addicted, why this persecution complex? It is not cancer. It's fucking addiction. If there isn't a needle exchange, smoke that shit and shut the fuck up. 
(February 24, 2014 at 3:05 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: To be fair, I don't think any addict would want to have rehab in place of a leukemia patient being treated, either. Me and that silly little idealistic spark...
Here we agree. I don't think they would, either. In spite of my attitude, I do not think addicts are bad people, assholes, drains on society, etc. I just think those who are bitching about it as if the world done them wrong could grow up a little. Yes, addiction sucks. Yes, it is painful. Yes, you have a chance to do better. The only way to do that is to suck it the fuck up. You can't just suck it up and have a bone set itself, you know? There is a big difference.
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 4:14 am
So you're saying that because I took heroin at the age of 13 through 14 in a blind, wild attempt to try to numb myself to the memories of being raped a couple dozen times, and became addicted to it, I should be denied treatment because people who have been affected through no fault of their own don't get any either, even though the cost of doing so is not even the tiniest fraction of what it takes to perform a cancer operation. Basically I should've just had to live up to my choice, eh? Tough cookies, I'm responsible for myself, believing I deserved treatment like any other person suffering and slowly dying because I made a decision that could have been because of a million factors, many of which are not particularly pleasant? Who are you to say whether or not someone is addicted by their choice alone? Do you factor in the contexts in which someone became addicted? How do you selectively identify the ones who were driven into it by circumstance from the ones who were just stupid? Or do you just reject them all, nevermind that life fucks someone over severely enough they fall to that low and that treating it is far less costly than treating a cancer patient? In fact, treating addicts is actually beneficial to society.
http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/pr...h-its-cost
Quote:According to several conservative estimates, every dollar invested in addiction treatment programs yields a return of between $4 and $7 in reduced drug-related crime, criminal justice costs, and theft. When savings related to healthcare are included, total savings can exceed costs by a ratio of 12 to 1. Major savings to the individual and to society also stem from fewer interpersonal conflicts; greater workplace productivity; and fewer drug-related accidents, including overdoses and deaths.
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 4:21 am
People who lack the will to refuse hard drugs in the first place are not people who are going to force themselves out of the clutches of addiction, as a general rule.
Quote:Yeah, if there were a shortage of medical care absolutely. How fair is it for someone who is suffering because of the awful hand life has dealt have to suffer and wait so someone else can get help with something that is entirely their fault? What kind of addicted adult would want to get ahead of say a child with leukemia?
Not me, certainly. But, I don't think moral judgments belong in healthcare, even if it is limited. The severity of the affliction is what matters. A kid with leukemia is suffering more, and is in more danger overall, than a person who is battling addiction, most likely, so the moral question doesn't even really apply here.
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 4:27 am
"Should we shuffle all people who harm themselves due to controllable factors to the back of the line? Because, I don't ever want to be the person who makes that decision."
Death panels, Individualistic socialists, drugs. This thread has got it all.
And the fatties and druggies are already sent to the back of the line in terms of organ transplants, are they not?
Nemo me impune lacessit.
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 4:30 am
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2014 at 4:32 am by Jacob(smooth).)
There is a real problem with basing medical provision on merit. Who decides, and on what basis? Shell used the example of a broken leg, what if the broken leg was caused by doing an extreme sport? What of sedentary people? Why should we pay for their angioplasty?
It doesn't really work. The only way to dish out healthcare is based on clinical need. And even that is fraught with complications!
Also, respectfully, I don't think that most addicts can "just suck it up". Most addicts known, and I've known quite a few, would be no more capable of doing that than setting their own broken leg. And setting your own broken leg might just be less painful than going complete cold turkey from heroin without any medical help. To say addiction is "painful" is grossly understating it.
(February 24, 2014 at 4:27 am)Stue Denim Wrote: "Should we shuffle all people who harm themselves due to controllable factors to the back of the line? Because, I don't ever want to be the person who makes that decision."
Death panels, Individualistic socialists, drugs. This thread has got it all.
And the fatties and druggies are already sent to the back of the line in terms of organ transplants, are they not?
That's based on pure pragmatism, not merit. If you have one liver and the choice of a procedure with a 60%chance of success or one with a 40% chance of success you pick the former. No distinction is made over whether they are fat because of thyroid problems or fat because of pie.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 5:35 am
(February 24, 2014 at 2:16 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Should we shuffle all people who harm themselves due to controllable factors to the back of the line? Because, I don't ever want to be the person who makes that decision.
Under people who harm themselves (or increase the risk of harm to themselves) you could put:
People who drive cars
People who are overweight
People who drink Alcohol
People who play sports
People who go horse riding, mountain biking, surfing, skiing etc
People who sit at home and don't exercise
People who do a more dangerous job than the average
etc etc
I started a thread about how our brain enjoys itself a few weeks ago. You could argue that rather than go through the hassle of playing sport to release endorphins to please the brain, drug users are just being more efficient. I have never taken recreational drugs myself (apart from a lot of alcohol at university), so I'm not sure I'm the person to judge why other people do take them.
To quote Chris Morris' (satirist) character in BrassEye: "Alcohol isn't a drug, it's a drink"
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 8:10 am
(February 24, 2014 at 4:27 am)Stue Denim Wrote: "Should we shuffle all people who harm themselves due to controllable factors to the back of the line? Because, I don't ever want to be the person who makes that decision."
Death panels, Individualistic socialists, drugs. This thread has got it all.
And the fatties and druggies are already sent to the back of the line in terms of organ transplants, are they not?
When I make a thread, I make it to last.
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RE: Heroin overdose cure: It exists, but how do you get it?
February 24, 2014 at 11:15 am
(February 24, 2014 at 4:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: So you're saying that because I took heroin at the age of 13 through 14 in a blind, wild attempt to try to numb myself to the memories of being raped a couple dozen times, and became addicted to it, I should be denied treatment because people who have been affected through no fault of their own don't get any either, even though the cost of doing so is not even the tiniest fraction of what it takes to perform a cancer operation.
Yes, that is exactly what I said! Fucking hell, man. You just skipped over the fact that I was talking about persecution complexes there and not actual treatment. The part where I get to the treatment says in no way that addicts should be denied treatment.
Quote:Basically I should've just had to live up to my choice, eh?
Well, first you would have had to admit it was a choice. I have no idea how you managed to get off it without that. Maybe you just replaced it with something else. Who knows?
Quote: Who are you to say whether or not someone is addicted by their choice alone?
Did someone stick a needle in their arm at gun point? No? Choice. Why is that so offensive to you? I have had plenty of injuries that were my fault. I don't get all fucking uppity and blame it on "life" or "circumstances." It was my own dumb fault.
Quote:How do you selectively identify the ones who were driven into it by circumstance from the ones who were just stupid?
That's the age old excuse. "I need a drink because my boss is a dick." "I hit you because you drove me to it." "I need to blow another line so I can stay awake to study." It doesn't matter what the fucking excuse is. It's an excuse. For every addict, I'll find you another person who didn't make that choice under very similar circumstances. Still have no idea what the problem is with calling it a choice.
Quote:Or do you just reject them all, nevermind that life fucks someone over severely enough they fall to that low and that treating it is far less costly than treating a cancer patient? In fact, treating addicts is actually beneficial to society.
I never said to reject them. Of course, I can see this is going to be one of those, "Ermagerd, you're not an enabler, so fuck you." conversations, anyway. It's funny how you can come from a history of addiction and abuse and still not want to pander to addiction while others want to pretend it just magically happens when you have a tough time of it. Suck it up, kiddos.
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