Christians, prove your minds aren't molested by fear.

[Mudhammam]

In a post about ideal justice you bring up the American justice system? Lol.

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And justice for conspiracy to commit murder doesn't and shouldn't ever equal the same punishment for actually committing murder.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

In a post about ideal justice you bring up the American justice system? Lol.

Some people claim that America is a Christian nation. What's more Christian than the punishment of thought crimes, aka conspiracies?

[Mudhammam]

Well yes that's how we justify our war on alleged terrorism, is it not?

[fr0d0]

The question was... How do you know that the mass murdering rapist isn't dealt justice and is sent to heaven? You don't know. Your questions repeated Luckies and Rahuls's.

Well, if I was a Christian, I'd have to go with what the Bible says, and it speaks of no place like purgatory. Even if it did, you're talking about a relatively insignificant period of judgement when eternal bliss directly follows. So the reformed mass murderer is still given a much better fate than the (say, humanitarian) atheist, and I still don't see how that equates to justice in any sense of the word familiar to my mind. Does that seem like justice to you? Or do you in the back of your mind say, "No, that doesn't seem fair to me..but I just have to trust God because he knows"? I'm honestly asking.

I can't answer for you. I can only answer with what I believe to be true. Justice means the same thing to you as it does to me. If a person is living in a way that harms their own life (dogma: apart from God), then that's the level of death he imposed upon himself. If someone who has committed a serious act damaging their own life, but now lives not harming it, and has truly made up for the bad things they've done... in true justice... which one is deserving of further punishment? This is perfect justice as you would see it. It wouldn't be different to what you think is fair.

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The question was... How do you know that the mass murdering rapist isn't dealt justice and is sent to heaven? You don't know. Your questions repeated Luckies and Rahuls's.

John 3:16

Accept Jesus as your personal savior and all your sins are washed away as white as snow. If you don't accept, well you were born in sin, and there's only one other place you can go.

What denomination congregation do you attend?

See my info. Yes the promise is that Jesus clears our debt. Something all of us need because none of us are blameless. That doesn't mean that justice is not served. A rich person can be in a worse position than a criminal when it comes to pride.

If hell only applied to the present, who could be most guilt free... someone in jail serving a sentence for a serious crime, or Dave next door who is law abiding? Say the criminal, let's call him John, at this moment did nothing that detracted from him living a happy life, and Dave did do stuff that detracted from his enjoyment in life. John would be in heaven, and Dave hell. Do you see how that works?

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On a more fundamental level, justice is about taking appropriate action in the face of inappropriate actions. God's justice is about taking appropriate action in the presence of inappropriate thought. Any system of justice whose main crime is a thought crime cannot be perfectly just in my view. Thoughts aren't deserving of punishment; acts are.

That's a human stance, and something we all need I think. Both the perpetrator and the victim: justice for our actions, or acts against us. It's each parties burden to put right in their thoughts any hindrance to their peace.

[Mudhammam]

I can't answer for you. I can only answer with what I believe to be true. Justice means the same thing to you as it does to me.

Clearly, this is not the case. In my mind justice is an elusive suitcase term that only begins to really mean something when enacted in practice, and doing so involves taking into consideration as many facts about a situation as possible. It also means that value and appreciation of human nature is assumed. If I don't value the conscious experience of sentient beings, how can I ensure that justice is carried forth? I don't see how I can. So as I'm a humanist and you're a Christian, I'm sure our conception of justice is going to differ from the start (you think human nature is inherently or essentially corrupt, that all deserve death for their imperfections, whereas I think those types of labels are nothing more than our own mental constructs created to guide us towards whatever it is we conceive as progress or improvement).

If a person is living in a way that harms their own life (dogma: apart from God), then that's the level of death he imposed upon himself.

Define "apart from God" and why this is necessarily harmful. For example, as a Christian, I believed I was close to God because I felt all the emotional highs Christians describe when having a religious experience. I see now that those peaks had nothing to do with the doctrines of Christianity but rather only with the conscious state of mind I brought upon myself through fellowship with other like-minded individuals, training my mind to believe certain things about objective reality and my conscious relationship with it, singing worship songs intentionally written to pluck at the heart strings, etc. I can do those things without Christian faith. I can study nature and receive the same feeling of internal warmth and sense of connection with a higher power, the natural Universe. Why or how is this manifestly harmful? To me it appears at least more intellectually honest as I'm now open to receiving new information and can genuinely consider opposing perspectives (granted they're supplemented with scientific experiment), so on that level I see it as less harmful than my former faith in Jesus. How have I imposed death on myself through this alternative view of myself and the world in which I exist (or it through me)?

If someone who has committed a serious act damaging their own life, but now lives not harming it,

You mean they've believed that the essential point of the Gospel is true? Or you mean they've done something more? And without sufficient evidence...which leads me to ask, how is faith virtuous?

and has truly made up for the bad things they've done...

Have they? In what way?

in true justice... which one is deserving of further punishment? This is perfect justice as you would see it. It wouldn't be different to what you think is fair.

It depends. On the extreme level, take Hitler and Gandhi. One claimed to be Christian, the other did not. If it turns out that Christianity is true, on your belief system, there could be perfect justice in Hitler residing in heaven because he had a genuine conversion during his final moments on Earth while Gandhi is in hell for retaining his Hinduism or whatever he believed that rejected Jesus as savior. I'm not arguing that this is the case. What I'm saying is that in perfect justice, this could never be the case, and on Christianity, we're told the contrary is true. This is even demonstrated in the tale of the two thieves on either side of Jesus during the crucifixion, in which the point is clearly made that sinners can be redeemed at any time, even moments before death. So a person's works has nothing to do with their salvation (and Paul seems to emphasis as much) and yet we're to think that justice which relates to a person's beliefs and not their actions is superior in some way?

[fr0d0]

You're still extremely hung up on the dogma Pickup.

[Mudhammam]

You're still extremely hung up on the dogma Pickup.

Yes... because the Bible is dogma, my friend!

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What ISN'T dogmatic about a faith that has built-into it the demand for evangelism and the distinction between eternal hereafters such as Heaven and Hell?
I get the impression that you equate dogmatism with taking the Bible at its word.

[fr0d0]

I equate dogma with a language that people can't see past. They on the one hand understand and appreciate the problems, but really hate biblical language and will contradict themselves unknowingly when trashing it.

[Mudhammam]

I equate dogma with a language that people can't see past. They on the one hand understand and appreciate the problems, but really hate biblical language and will contradict themselves unknowingly when trashing it.

A problem entirely created by the incoherence within the doctrines themselves. What exactly is it that you see past in any of the concepts I have mentioned? Please clarify if I have misrepresented what your religion alleges to be absolute dogmatic truth.

[fr0d0]

I'm sorry Pickup I'm unable to address your large post in detail on my phone.