My Thoughts On Islam

[rsb]

Well I should not do this, but because I was both a student of Buddha and the historical Christ and Mohammad (sorry I was really drunk and a misogynistic asshole at the time and didn't realize the correct reincarnation sequence) I have to tell you the truth, the following link is actually a historical documentary of my life. Please don't commit suicide, and join my army.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756683/

P.S. Joe smith was my little brother I dared him to do it. The others are all just aliens trying to infect you with Gould.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

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I've been asked to comment on Islam. Since I'm not as familiar with this religion as I am on Christianity, I'm going to structure this post as a series of questions I have (i.e. "let me see if I got this straight..."). I've commented before that Islam is "Christianity on Steroids" but this is more about what I've seen as its practical applications in society than the nuances of its theology. If any Muslim apologists on the forum would like to comment or answer these questions, they're welcome to.

Having gotten a third of the way through the Koran, I notice the same OT stories and prophets. A few are changed slightly. For example, in the Garden of Eden, the angels were asked to bow down before the created humans and Lucifer (or Iblis) refused, which was the cause of his rebellion. The "Trinity" criticized at one point is misunderstood as the Father, Mother and Son, probably the result of Catholicism's fixation on Mary.

The biggest difference is that Jesus tells Allah that he never told the people to worship him or that he was the Son of God. I forget the exact verse but it's clear that Jesus was a forerunner to Muhammad, much the same way the Christian version of John the Baptist was to Jesus. I understand that Muslims regard Jesus as a "great prophet" but not as the divine Son of God.

At first glance, Islam seems slightly more rational that Christianity as it jettisons the babbling nonsense about "The Trinity", which I regard as a poorly contrived concept to try to reconcile pagan ideas of the intercessor savior with strict Jewish monotheism. Islam is at least consistent in its claim of monotheism. Indeed, I've heard some Muslim apologists claim that "Islam correct Christianity." One used the analogy of computer software that Judaism was "God 1.0", Christianity was "God 2.0" and Islam is "God 3.0".

Some questions I have on further examination is with regards to the claims Islam makes about Jesus. If the story of Islam is true, then Jesus preached a message of pure monotheism, foretold that a greater prophet was to come, he was framed by the Jews, he escaped crucifixion when someone took his place (kind of a "Tale of Two Cities" sort of twist) and was taken up into the sky to be in Heaven. A few years later, the heretic Paul convinced everyone to worship Jesus and Christianity was born.

Do I have the story straight?

Now exactly where Muhammad got his information about Jesus and the true story is something I wonder about. If we limit ourselves to worldly sources of information, Muhammad could have only heard about Jesus from the very Christians, the very people that he claimed got the story all wrong. Now assuming Muhammad isn't lying, that means he could have only gotten the true story from divine revelation.

So let me see if I got this straight.

1. Jesus gathers a group of close followers. Three years after he leaves the earth, Paul comes along and tells them to pay no attention to what Jesus said and to instead worship him. All the early Christians then say, "Duh, OK."

Seriously? Why didn't they just laugh at Paul? Why would they take Paul seriously enough to forget all they'd been taught and commit such blasphemy that goes against both the teachings of their prophet and their religion?

2. Jesus is a "great prophet" in Islam. His message as a prophet was to practice monotheism and to expect Muhammad. The people he preached to failed to get this message, they never anticipated another coming and, to top it all off, worshiped him in a gross commission of idolatry. Short of the Christians all becoming Satanists, I can't imagine a greater disaster in terms of his assigned mission contrasted with the results.

Therefore, Jesus was clearly incompetent and a miserable failure as an Islamic prophet. If not, why not?

3. The Jews killed Jesus why again? In the Christian story, Jesus blasphemed by calling himself the Son of God and an intercessor to God. Indeed, according to Jewish monotheism, Jesus DID blaspheme and the Jewish laws would have called for his death. But the Muslim version of the story has no such blasphemy. Jesus denies he is the Son of God and only preached a message of devotion to God, a message that the Jews should have been in agreement with. As for expecting another, greater prophet, this was again consistent with Jewish theology, which was looking for the Messiah. The expected Messiah was not a divine being but a warlord and a mortal human servant of God.

There was nothing the Muslim Jesus preached that should have called for his death by Jewish law or tradition. Am I missing something?

4. If God did decide to tell Muhammad the true story, why not tell the Christians? This is the classic problem a "new" religion has. If it is true, why didn't God tell anyone else before now?

You can begin to see why I say the story that Muslims tell about Jesus makes absolutely no sense from start to finish.

Now, I'm a critic of Christianity and can tear apart their bogus history but at least they have something to tear apart. Christianity, for all it's flaws, has a slick marketing package filled with "eye-witness accounts" and complete with folklore of an established church. What has Islam got? Some guy who is the Johnny-come-lately to the party (six centuries later) who announces that the party is all about him, that he's the awaited final great prophet? God spoke to him and wants to tell us how everyone else got it all wrong?

You can assert, if you like, that Muhammad got the real story about Jesus from divine revelation but what proof is there? I can go down to the local insane asylum and find a dozen inmates who will make the same claim to have spoken with God and have just as much proof.

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If I WERE to choose between Islam and Christianity, it comes down to who is right about Jesus. Why should I not go with the people who are part of the established church that Jesus supposedly founded? Why would I believe the man who came along six centuries later to say the only people he could have heard about Jesus from were the ones who got it all wrong? This is beyond special pleading.

A significant difference between Islam and Judaism and Christianity is that Islam worships a deity whereas Judaism considers Jews to be special and Christians worship a Jew. IOW Islam is more deity centered while Judaism and Christianity are more focused on worshiping Jews.

[fr0d0]

For now, I'll just say that I think that if you live in the U.S, it's very different. Of all the Muslims I've known, whether through business dealings or through friendships, they have been pretty outstandng human beings.

To be continued.....................

I have many Indian friends. I would agree with you if you were talking about Hindus. Muslims to them are a warring people. I think of them like Catholics: they don't think what they believe they just follow religiously. Following rules does make for peaceful people. You obviously haven't met the meat cleaver wielding type. In the UK Muslims are peacefully changing the law to reflect sharia. They don't believe you should have the right to individual freedom.

[Mystic]

One huge difference between Islam and Christianity is what it describes as means of knowing. While Christianity emphasizes on a spiritual mystical element (the holy spirit) that is suppose to make you know, and that hating the light and loving the darkness being the cause of ignoring the holy spirit proof of Christianity. Islam on the other hand emphasizes that it's a matter of understanding and intellect, and that he condemns and brings uncleanness on those who don't understand and use their intellect. As the intellectual proof of Islam is claimed to be clear and evident for those who reflect, it praises those who reflect, and believers are thus the people of intellect and reflection.

[Minimalist]

Its mostly education involved , the better they're educated the less dick like they're gonna act .

True of xtians, too. The dumber they are the more dickish they act.

[DeistPaladin]

Unfortunately, DP, your contention that the Muslim story about Jesus makes "absolutely no sense from start to finish" is rather a very knee-jerk type of response, in my opinion. On the contrary, whoever does an in-depth and sincere comparison between the religions, will find that the Muslim view of Jesus is much more consistent and plausible than the story that the Christians tell about Jesus.

You'll get no argument from me on some of the absurdities of the Christian view of Jesus. We'll have much common ground there. However, the story includes not just Jesus but those around him. Am I really to believe that Jesus preached what he did only to have Paul come along 3 years later and convince all his followers to ignore what Jesus taught them and instead to worship him and a divine intercessor? Why would his followers do this?

Additionally, where did Muhammad get his information about Jesus? If it was from worldly sources, how could it have been from anyone other than the very people he claimed got it so wrong? If it was from God, then why didn't God provide similar revelation to the Christians?

According to the Old Testament as well - just like in Islam - it is considered to be a blasphemy and a great sin to attribute Jesus as being God Himself or anything of that sort.

Agreed. This is why I say that Christianity is not a fulfillment of Judaism, as Christians like to claim, but rather the child of Judaism and Paganism.

To the Jews and Muslims, Jesus was only a Prophet of God, nothing else. And he didn't come to earth to perform any kind of a sacrifice on himself for anyone's sins.

To the Muslims, yes. I'm not so sure about the Jews. Last I checked, the Jews regard Jesus as neither a prophet nor a divine being.

And partly because of these false rumors being spread about Jesus, in addition to Paul's insistence that the whole message of Christianity is specifically centered around the death and resurrection of Jesus as an atonement for sins (which has nothing to do with keeping the Jewish law apparently), God sent the Quran to Muhammad as a last and final revelation in order to separate the truth from the lies.

This gets back to how the story makes no sense to me. Essentially, God's "great prophet" screwed up royally and God's solution to the problem was not to send any signs, angels or communication to the Christians but rather to sit back and watch them run off the beaten path for six centuries and then finally tell the truth to someone in a relatively distant land. This is what makes no sense and I'm left with the simpler explanation that Muhammad is no different from the many religious leaders before and since who claimed divine revelation.

There is also scholarly opinion that Christians themselves didn't worship Jesus as God nor the Son of God in Christianity's earliest generation (see below).

Again, no dispute from me that there were many Christianities. Which ones were the "first" is a matter that I don't think is so clear. I sometimes wonder if Islam is influenced by the Ebionite sect which saw Jesus as a mortal holy man adopted by God as a son and empowered by the Holy Spirit to perform miracles.

If I had to speculate, I'd say it's most likely the Docetics were the first, since they saw Jesus in visions and apparitions. We'd expect the spiritual Jesus to be the first and then later versions would be brought to earth in stories that might have first been intended as parables rather than a historical Jesus that later Christians would insist only existed as a spiritual being.

No, by and large the first Christians did not worship Jesus as such.

I'm not so sure based on the non-Christian testimony regarding the early Christians. To quote the letters from Pliny the Elder:

"Christians ... asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so." – Pliny to Trajan, circa 112 CE.

If you want to go much earlier than 112 CE, the history of Christianity becomes very murky and it's hard to separate Christian folklore from the truth.

you are essentially implying that the Christians are more likely to be correct about who Jesus was, which is that Jesus is God (or perhaps the son of God).

Just to make this clearer: Christians: Jesus is God vs. Muslims: Jesus is NOT God

Are you serious that you would choose the first option? I doubt it.

Well which would make more sense to you:
1. Muhammad was right about Jesus.
2. The people Muhammad heard about Jesus from were right about Jesus.

That's my logic. I'd go to the earliest sources to know the truth. Christianity at least has the appeal to antiquity, being the church supposedly established by those who knew Jesus. Muhammad came along much later and only heard about Jesus from these very Christians.

Now to be fair, I'm not saying Islam doesn't have some advantages over Christianity. Islam ditches the Trinity nonsense. Advantage: Islam. But Christianity has the pedigree of six centuries of a church established, allegedly, by the people who knew Jesus, along with a slick marketing package of supposed "eye-witness accounts" and folklore masquerading as history. Advantage: Christianity.

I'd also miss Christmas. Even as a non-believer, it's a lot of fun.

[DeistPaladin]

...Islam on the other hand emphasizes that it's a matter of understanding and intellect, and that he condemns and brings uncleanness on those who don't understand and use their intellect. As the intellectual proof of Islam is claimed to be clear and evident for those who reflect, it praises those who reflect, and believers are thus the people of intellect and reflection.

That might explain why the Islamic world helped keep the flame of Greeco-Roman learning alive while Christian Europe festered in the Dark Ages. Europe owes much of its Enlightenment to the Islamic world (and the fracturing of Christian power also helped). Where did it all go so wrong? Why is the Islamic world trapped in its own Dark Ages today?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

...Islam on the other hand emphasizes that it's a matter of understanding and intellect, and that he condemns and brings uncleanness on those who don't understand and use their intellect. As the intellectual proof of Islam is claimed to be clear and evident for those who reflect, it praises those who reflect, and believers are thus the people of intellect and reflection.

That might explain why the Islamic world helped keep the flame of Greeco-Roman learning alive while Christian Europe festered in the Dark Ages. Europe owes much of its Enlightenment to the Islamic world (and the fracturing of Christian power also helped). Where did it all go so wrong? Why is the Islamic world trapped in its own Dark Ages today?

The Jews were behind the majority of the advances credited to the Arab and Moor muslims. Desert dwelling camel riders simply did not have the educational background to be technically creative. The Jews collaborated with the muslims for centuries. They let the muslims have the credit.

[rhn2704]

Iestablished church. What has Islam

If I WERE to choose between Islam and Christianity, it comes down to who is right about Jesus. Why should I not go with the people who are part of the established church that Jesus supposedly founded? Why would I believe the man who came along six centuries later to say the only people he could have heard about Jesus from were the ones who got it all wrong? This is beyond special pleading.

What you need to understand is that there is a concept of Orignal Sin in Christianity.

Where as in Islam,We Muslims believe Man is born free from any sins.

Nobody shall bear the sins of one another but only ownself.

If I make a mistake or broke any law.I should be held accountable and not anyone else.

Similarly is this not enough for you to understand why the concept of Orignal Sin fails for this very own reason.

God is Most Merciful.Would he really need to send his begotten son to pay for the sins of Mankind??

Also Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H)1400 years ago.The same Quran is read and memorised by millions of Muslims worldwide.

Whereas for the Bible,No Orignal Manuscripts exist till date.

Prophet Muhammed and all other Prophets which came before him came with only one message.

"To believe and worship Only One True God"

Below is the Surah Ikhas.Which is the perfect description about God.

Say:Allah, the One and Only; [1] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; [2] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; [3] And there is none comparable unto Him. [4]

[Qur'an 112:1-4]

Also you say about Trinity.Can you point out this word in the Bible ?

Also can you point out any single unequivocal statement where Jesus Christ himself Says I am God and Worship me???

Just ponder about all this.Hope Truth finds you to it.

[Dragonetti]

Again, Islam came after Christianity.

Islam took many of the teaching from Christianity to incorporate. All the Abrahamic religions follow the same god. They all came one after another as well.