Atheists... why do you believe that God doesn't exist?

[fr0d0]

I agree with you about God whateverist. His realm encompasses ours IMO.

I understand you to be open to the possibility of the existence some sort of supernatural force. Maybe that's the origin of thoughts on the subject. Coincidence, dreams, etc feed the habit. I think it's a dangerous area.

I find some explanations of spiritual reality convincing (obviously! ). Those are entirely practical and have become more so the older I get. I have had very many dreams of future events. Nothing helpful. Some of places and things previously unknown to me. I still put those down to the power of imagination and the subconscious mind. What I'm really convinced of is the practical benefit of belief in enabling a positive outlook. Assuming God, for me, understanding the reason for God, makes everything else fall into place.

For me, the natural we know is the wonder of the supernatural behind it. It really is a fully immersive experience that acknowledges the awesomeness of it in a wider context, addressing all of the human rather than the constituent parts independently. Do I need that to survive or even enjoy the experience? No. Is my experience enhanced? Yes I think so.

People, IMO, are Christians through understanding, and not supernatural experience, if that's what you think I believe.

[Whateverist]

I agree with you about God whateverist. His realm encompasses ours IMO.

I understand you to be open to the possibility of the existence some sort of supernatural force. Maybe that's the origin of thoughts on the subject. Coincidence, dreams, etc feed the habit. I think it's a dangerous area.

I find some explanations of spiritual reality convincing (obviously! ). Those are entirely practical and have become more so the older I get. I have had very many dreams of future events. Nothing helpful. Some of places and things previously unknown to me. I still put those down to the power of imagination and the subconscious mind. What I'm really convinced of is the practical benefit of belief in enabling a positive outlook. Assuming God, for me, understanding the reason for God, makes everything else fall into place.

For me, the natural we know is the wonder of the supernatural behind it. It really is a fully immersive experience that acknowledges the awesomeness of it in a wider context, addressing all of the human rather than the constituent parts independently. Do I need that to survive or even enjoy the experience? No. Is my experience enhanced? Yes I think so.

People, IMO, are Christians through understanding, and not supernatural experience, if that's what you think I believe.

I wouldn't put it that way (bolded). It doesn't go beyond the natural, just beyond the personal. Whatever it is that allows trillions of cells to come together and submerge their life force and activity into what gives rise to one being is pretty remarkable. So much goes on below the surface to give rise to our sense of being.

I don't find I need to imagine another mind or self, separate from me to feel my experienced enhanced. It is enough for me that whatever gives rise to me is capable of so much. Being open to what that is and can become keeps me pretty enthused, and free from muggledom.

It isn't clear to me why you need to imagine that the mystery which creates and supports you also creates and supports the entire universe. I'm content to let the mystery be as that song Chas shared put it. But then again I don't entirely understand why I need what I need either.

[fr0d0]

I wouldn't put it that way (bolded). It doesn't go beyond the natural, just beyond the personal. Whatever it is that allows trillions of cells to come together and submerge their life force and activity into what gives rise to one being is pretty remarkable. So much goes on below the surface to give rise to our sense of being.

I don't find I need to imagine another mind or self, separate from me to feel my experienced enhanced. It is enough for me that whatever gives rise to me is capable of so much. Being open to what that is and can become keeps me pretty enthused, and free from muggledom.

It isn't clear to me why you need to imagine that the mystery which creates and supports you also creates and supports the entire universe. I'm content to let the mystery be as that song Chas shared put it. But then again I don't entirely understand why I need what I need either.

Ah I see (paragraph 1). Yeah I think if it supports me it must also be involved in the whole of existence. We can only know our own experience but I think it less self centred/ all encompassing to take in everything. If your understanding were to become widespread, for example would the danger be self preservation?

Perhaps my understanding doesn't go beyond the personal. What I'm doing is interpreting reality though this Christianity filter to change my outlook. It's me interpreter to explain reality as you find you need to interpret it. I think I'd be thinking the same way as you if I hadn't confronted Christianity. I think all systems can have merit. Wanting always to have my own thoughts I greatly admire a unique perspective.

[MindForgedManacle]

No, it doesn't.
Especially since 'fine tuning' cannot be convincingly demonstrated.

Actually, it does. Unlike under naturalism, theism does have a reasonably good prior probability of having sentient beings.

[Chas]

No, it doesn't.
Especially since 'fine tuning' cannot be convincingly demonstrated.

Actually, it does. Unlike under naturalism, theism does have a reasonably good prior probability of having sentient beings.

Could you restate that in a clearer manner?

[archangle]

"personal" stuff is a cop out. It goes against most human activities. We are social animals.
Try personal rules driving down the highway, see how that works. In fact this "personal" is usually whipped out when the limits of understanding is reached. The conclusion sits right in front of them but they refuse to accept it. We have to personalize it because if we tried to tell somebody else we would learn how full shit we are.

[Rampant.A.I.]

1. I don't believe in something that lacks supporting evidence. I believe in something which cannot by definition have objective evidence.

Right, you only believe in supernatural things you want to believe in, claim your belief is rational and supported by a reasonable argument you will not provide. If you expect anyone to rationally agree with claims, you have to support them with something other than "I have support".

2. I just answered.

3. Read the thread and your 1st response to me

No idea what this is referring to, you'll have to be more specific.

4. I believe in a supernatural entity. I do not believe in superstitious nonsense. No conflict there. Your statement that I have a supernatural belief is nonsensical in itself... It asserts that I have supernatural ability.

So you believe in the supernatural. Except anything supernatural that isn't canon to your religious beliefs. And some supernatural beliefs that are.

You're saying in effect "I don't believe in the supernatural superstitious nonsense, I only believe in one supernatural entity with miraculous deeds and supernatural powers!"

Yes. You do believe in the supernatural, yet dismiss some supernatural claims you dislike, based on nothing.

5. I just explained why I don't believe in other supernatural entities giving the leprechaun as an example.

Yes, you said something along the lines of "well obviously they're imaginary, reasonable people know that" and changed subjects.

6. Intellect is a gift I assume you possess, just like me. With this we can explore any proposal presented. I don't dismiss the supernatural. You do. Your conclusion isn't mine. Your reasoning being.... there is no natural evidence. I'm sorry, that not logical. My reasoning: the theological evidence for God.

You claim to not dismiss the supernatural, yet dismiss unicorns and leprechauns as imaginary. Your deity, leprechauns and unicorns all lack evidence, and yet you dismiss two of the three, based on what? The same skepticism you claim I lack for not accepting your unsupported claims as true by default.

Could you quote where I have claimed "I know God does not exist"?

Given the historical things attributed to a God or gods have a track record of being demonstratively due to natural causes, and that people seem to believe in gods/A God entirely due to culture, upbringing, and the history of their geographic location, and people seem to only experience revelations about the God or gods they are socialized to accept. And religion itself does not seem to come from revelation of objective truths, it seems to evolve from earlier cultural beliefs into new forms, and split of into sects, which eventually become other religions. The whole business, while interesting, seems to be the product of superstitious belief in the supernatural.

7. You studied a few religions superficially. I've done that and also studied one particular religion exhaustively and also as an active participant. You bet I claim authority.

Judaism and Christianity are major worldwide religions. What part of comparative religions did you take to mean "a cursory review of a few of 'em"? You seem to be claiming expertise based on extensive indoctrination and study from a non-academic, and apparently not critical perspective.

If you're claiming you have studied Christanity exhaustively, why can you not provide any reason your specific JCI deity is distinguishable from other supernatural beliefs? You've been asked five times, and yet have produced nothing but "I have a rational argument."

8. You apparently can't read.

You say that, after claiming I'm a poor skeptic for finding your unsupported claims unconvincing.

9. You claim to have studied comparative religions, yet you have no idea how to distinguish between deity and superficial magic. I find that hard to believe... that you claim ignorance of a subject you claim to have studied.

There is no distinguishing characteristic between a deity and the belief in any given supernatural entity, other than what attributes the practitioners of that religion attribute to it.

[Coffee Jesus]

I agree with you about God whateverist. His realm encompasses ours IMO.

I understand you to be open to the possibility of the existence some sort of supernatural force. Maybe that's the origin of thoughts on the subject. Coincidence, dreams, etc feed the habit. I think it's a dangerous area.

Supernatural force? i.e. a God that intervenes?
You believe there is a god that intervenes in such a way that he never leaves behind evidence of his interventions, and at such a low rate that many people never get to see it personally, and with such unclear intentions that every culture has reached different conclusions as to what he wants of us, and lets children starve, be raped, or be murdered despite his powers? Please correct me if I'm wrong. That is what you believe, right?

[Whateverist]

"personal" stuff is a cop out. It goes against most human activities. We are social animals.
Try personal rules driving down the highway, see how that works. In fact this "personal" is usually whipped out when the limits of understanding is reached. The conclusion sits right in front of them but they refuse to accept it. We have to personalize it because if we tried to tell somebody else we would learn how full shit we are.

Sorry I don't speak gibberish. Can can anyone translate this for me?

[archangle]

"personal" stuff is a cop out. It goes against most human activities. We are social animals.
Try personal rules driving down the highway, see how that works. In fact this "personal" is usually whipped out when the limits of understanding is reached. The conclusion sits right in front of them but they refuse to accept it. We have to personalize it because if we tried to tell somebody else we would learn how full shit we are.

Sorry I don't speak gibberish. Can can anyone translate this for me?

that is telling in of itself.

"personal gods" is a cop out. A load of BS when you try and understand things going on around and you don't have the background information, or are afraid to make a choice or a decision.

You seem to fit both. You know what you know. That's all you need.