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RE: Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 13, 2014 at 10:00 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2014 at 10:09 pm by Godscreated.)
(May 13, 2014 at 7:50 pm)eyemixer Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 7:29 pm)Godschild Wrote:
Those that are not interested can just sit there and observe the rights of others in action.
GC
So you do not agree with Matthew 6:5?
I see you do not understand the verse, not even a little to use it in this argument. The verse is about hypocrites not about genuine prayer, get on track. That verse would apply to those who pray to other gods though, so for them,yes I would agree. You believe that verse refers to praying in public because you oppose public prayer, you should not try to use scripture against Christians who understand it's meaning.
GC
(May 13, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Sejanus Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 9:45 pm)Godschild Wrote: Believe what you wish, it want change the facts.
Right back at you GC, right back at you. Except I would've spelled "won't" right.
Nice to see that the only faults you can find is my bad choice in a word. Really small of you, I find others misspelling all the time and never point it out, just consider them honest mistakes.
GC
(May 13, 2014 at 9:52 pm)Beccs Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 9:45 pm)Godschild Wrote: I would sit quietly through their prayer, why should I disrupt it, because I do not believe in it, I do not believe in many things yet I do not go around disrupting what others do.
No one would be inflicting their prayer on others, that would be considered torture, I hardly would consider sitting through prayer torture. Though I'm sure you or someone else will say it is, no surprises here.
I like how you set up my answer to be rejected as nonsense before I gave it, dishonest a best, small at the very least. Believe what you wish, it want change the facts.
GC
No, because I've had many theists say they would act a certain way in one post and then several posts later state the exact opposite. Evidence leads me to expect certain behaviours.
No dishonesty involved, just experience.
The point still stands. Why, when you can pray in your home, in your church, or quietly before the meeting, do you also feel you have the right to pray and, I will say it again, inflict it on others.
You MIGHT be one of those few theists who would sit by and quietly tolerate a prayer from a different religion, but there are many who aren't. But those would be the first to scream "persecution" if someone disrupted their prayer.
RJA
To have set my answer up for rejection before I made it you must believe I'm one of those who feed you contradictions in my statements, if I have it's been a mistake and I would like to see where I did so I can correct myself.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
RE: Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 13, 2014 at 10:21 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2014 at 10:22 pm by The Valkyrie.)
(May 13, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 7:50 pm)eyemixer Wrote: So you do not agree with Matthew 6:5?
I see you do not understand the verse, not even a little to use it in this argument. The verse is about hypocrites not about genuine prayer, get on track. That verse would apply to those who pray to other gods though, so for them,yes I would agree. You believe that verse refers to praying in public because you oppose public prayer, you should not try to use scripture against Christians who understand it's meaning.
GC
(May 13, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Sejanus Wrote: Right back at you GC, right back at you. Except I would've spelled "won't" right.
Nice to see that the only faults you can find is my bad choice in a word. Really small of you, I find others misspelling all the time and never point it out, just consider them honest mistakes.
GC
(May 13, 2014 at 9:52 pm)Beccs Wrote: No, because I've had many theists say they would act a certain way in one post and then several posts later state the exact opposite. Evidence leads me to expect certain behaviours.
No dishonesty involved, just experience.
The point still stands. Why, when you can pray in your home, in your church, or quietly before the meeting, do you also feel you have the right to pray and, I will say it again, inflict it on others.
You MIGHT be one of those few theists who would sit by and quietly tolerate a prayer from a different religion, but there are many who aren't. But those would be the first to scream "persecution" if someone disrupted their prayer.
RJA
To have set my answer up for rejection before I made it you must believe I'm one of those who feed you contradictions in my statements, if I have it's been a mistake and I would like to see where I did so I can correct myself.
GC
Again, see first two sentences in my response above.
Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 13, 2014 at 10:24 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2014 at 10:24 pm by Rampant.A.I..)
(May 13, 2014 at 9:45 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Beccs Wrote: Those who are not interested should not have to have the prayers of others inflicted on them.
Now, I know what you will say, but I generally call nonsense on the answer I'm expecting. Would you be okay with it, and sit through it quietly, if this was a Satanic prayer or a Muslim prayer? Or would you react, as we've seen so many Christian do, by shouting and disrupting the prayers of others?
RJA
I would sit quietly through their prayer, why should I disrupt it, because I do not believe in it, I do not believe in many things yet I do not go around disrupting what others do.
No one would be inflicting their prayer on others, that would be considered torture, I hardly would consider sitting through prayer torture. Though I'm sure you or someone else will say it is, no surprises here.
I like how you set up my answer to be rejected as nonsense before I gave it, dishonest a best, small at the very least. Believe what you wish, it want change the facts.
GC
(May 13, 2014 at 7:52 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote:
Hey, you do know there are religions without deities. Of coarse not or you would have had a decent answer.
GC
Ok, well, didn't you already announce that religions without deities should be exempt from being allowed to pray?
RE: Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 13, 2014 at 10:43 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2014 at 10:45 pm by eyemixer.)
(May 13, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 7:50 pm)eyemixer Wrote: So you do not agree with Matthew 6:5?
I see you do not understand the verse, not even a little to use it in this argument. The verse is about hypocrites not about genuine prayer, get on track. That verse would apply to those who pray to other gods though, so for them,yes I would agree. You believe that verse refers to praying in public because you oppose public prayer, you should not try to use scripture against Christians who understand it's meaning.
GC
How do you know my position on public prayer? I have not stated it so you are making a total assumption based on I know not what. Please do not state my beliefs based solely on your unfounded opinion, it is very disrespectful.
I asked a question. Once you assumed I am opposed to public prayers you decided that I was trying to 'use scripture against Christians who understand it's meaning.' That again is an incorrect assumption on your part.
I asked the question because I understood the verse to be a fairly explicit condemnation of prayer as spectacle. Both grandparents on my father's side were Ministers in the Episcopalian faith and my Grandfather led a parish near Shreveport, Louisiana for decades.
I discussed this passage with them, as one of the many we discussed over the years, and the position they seemed to take was that prayer should be as personal as a community observance can be. They frowned on public displays but felt houses of worship were fine since they allowed a sense of community spirit. They emphasized modesty in both decor and manner however and kept the focus on the Word and the people.
This was the opinion I got from actual Christians, so if you do not feel this is a correct interpretation I am happy to discuss why you think that is the case. I may change my mind on what the intent of the verse is. I may not, it depends on what you have to say on the matter, but 'get on track' and 'against Christians who understand its meaning' don't really advance a discussion any.
If you are willing to explain your interpretation of the verse so I can understand what it is, and why you feel it is a better interpretation, please do so.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when you pray, be not like the pretenders who like to stand in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets to pray, that they may be seen by the children of men, and truly I say to you, they have received their reward.
I have stated my opinion on what the verse means, in context of public prayer. I understand that there are two groups in play, those being addressed and the 'pretenders' and there can be a whole discussion about 'pretenders'. I am willing to have that discussion as well if you want.
EDIT: We can examine the passage from any biblical source your prefer, I have no axe to grind in that regard.
NOT logic:
1. Claim to have logic
2. Throw a tantrum when asked to present it
3. Claim you've already presented it
4. Repeat step 1
RE: Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 13, 2014 at 10:49 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2014 at 10:50 pm by Sejanus.)
(May 13, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Sejanus Wrote: Right back at you GC, right back at you. Except I would've spelled "won't" right.
Nice to see that the only faults you can find is my bad choice in a word. Really small of you, I find others misspelling all the time and never point it out, just consider them honest mistakes.
GC
Not my only point, not even my main one. Just a grammar Nazi habit of mine. If you actually read my post I was stating how ironic your "Believe what you wish, it want change the facts." statement was, you being an xtian and all. But the fact that that flew over your head doesn't surprise me. Run along, now.
~1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.~
~Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." - Jesus Christ.~
RE: Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 14, 2014 at 1:53 am (This post was last modified: May 14, 2014 at 1:59 am by Godscreated.)
(May 13, 2014 at 10:21 pm)Beccs Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: I see you do not understand the verse, not even a little to use it in this argument. The verse is about hypocrites not about genuine prayer, get on track. That verse would apply to those who pray to other gods though, so for them,yes I would agree. You believe that verse refers to praying in public because you oppose public prayer, you should not try to use scripture against Christians who understand it's meaning.
GC
Nice to see that the only faults you can find is my bad choice in a word. Really small of you, I find others misspelling all the time and never point it out, just consider them honest mistakes.
GC
To have set my answer up for rejection before I made it you must believe I'm one of those who feed you contradictions in my statements, if I have it's been a mistake and I would like to see where I did so I can correct myself.
GC
Again, see first two sentences in my response above.
Also, you completely ignore the rest of the post.
RJA
I did not ignore any of the post, I did not feel I need to give an answer to the rest, if there is a particular part you would like me to address please state what part. The reason I answered the part I did I was wanting to know if I have given you contradictory answers and what they might be.
GC
(May 13, 2014 at 10:49 pm)Sejanus Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: Nice to see that the only faults you can find is my bad choice in a word. Really small of you, I find others misspelling all the time and never point it out, just consider them honest mistakes.
GC
Not my only point, not even my main one. Just a grammar Nazi habit of mine. If you actually read my post I was stating how ironic your "Believe what you wish, it want change the facts." statement was, you being an xtian and all. But the fact that that flew over your head doesn't surprise me. Run along, now.
I saw that part, I'll say it again, believe what you want, it want change the facts. You can't just wish God away, though He could wish you away, understand?
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
RE: Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 14, 2014 at 3:07 am
(May 13, 2014 at 10:43 pm)eyemixer Wrote:
(May 13, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Godschild Wrote:
I see you do not understand the verse, not even a little to use it in this argument. The verse is about hypocrites not about genuine prayer, get on track. That verse would apply to those who pray to other gods though, so for them,yes I would agree. You believe that verse refers to praying in public because you oppose public prayer, you should not try to use scripture against Christians who understand it's meaning.
GC
How do you know my position on public prayer? I have not stated it so you are making a total assumption based on I know not what. Please do not state my beliefs based solely on your unfounded opinion, it is very disrespectful.
I've not found any atheist on this site that approves of public prayer, so I guess it's just habit to lump others in with the rest. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, it did seem you had an aversion to public prayer by the verse you used.
Quote:I asked a question. Once you assumed I am opposed to public prayers you decided that I was trying to 'use scripture against Christians who understand it's meaning.' That again is an incorrect assumption on your part.
Why, the verse does not apply to Christians who are sincere in their belief, it applies to the ones who use prayer in arrogance. Most Christians in public offices want God's guidance in their decisions, so they can make a better world for everyone. I'm not going to say you probably do not believe what I just stated, I'm asking you? If you use a verse and do not give an explanation sometimes all that's left is to assume, based on the verse used.
Quote:I asked the question because I understood the verse to be a fairly explicit condemnation of prayer as spectacle. Both grandparents on my father's side were Ministers in the Episcopalian faith and my Grandfather led a parish near Shreveport, Louisiana for decades.
Since you understand the verse why did you use it, it doesn't fit this with this particular discussion in my opinion. Christian leaders have be praying for two hundred years for guidance from God, it's just be recently that practice has come under fire by a minority of people. They didn't use pray before to make a spectacle, or at least most did not, so I was thinking you thought they were now.
Quote:I discussed this passage with them, as one of the many we discussed over the years, and the position they seemed to take was that prayer should be as personal as a community observance can be. They frowned on public displays but felt houses of worship were fine since they allowed a sense of community spirit. They emphasized modesty in both decor and manner however and kept the focus on the Word and the people.
I see prayer as invoking the power of God for a purpose and if those who lead and are Christians believe the same, then why not ask God in public for His help. Christ said, we were not to hide our beliefs, we are suppose to stand up for our beliefs. Your grandparents and I differ on this, it's our rights as citizens and Christians.
Quote:This was the opinion I got from actual Christians, so if you do not feel this is a correct interpretation I am happy to discuss why you think that is the case. I may change my mind on what the intent of the verse is. I may not, it depends on what you have to say on the matter, but 'get on track' and 'against Christians who understand its meaning' don't really advance a discussion any.
The verse has little to do with prayer itself, it is about those who would arrogantly use prayer to promote their own selves. Self promotion and arrogance are not a part of Christian life and this is the point Christ was making. The reason for this passage goes all the way back to the fall of man when Adam and Eve decided that the self was more important than God's Word. This great sin by them has been a focus point throughout scripture, God ask us to trust because He has our best interest at heart, He wants to take care of us and for that to happen we must die to self as Paul said. God's not asking us to be puppets, He's asking for our faithful trust. So as I see things, public prayer has a place in this country, we are showing our faithful trust in God to help us.
Quote:If you are willing to explain your interpretation of the verse so I can understand what it is, and why you feel it is a better interpretation, please do so.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when you pray, be not like the pretenders who like to stand in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets to pray, that they may be seen by the children of men, and truly I say to you, they have received their reward.
I have stated my opinion on what the verse means, in context of public prayer. I understand that there are two groups in play, those being addressed and the 'pretenders' and there can be a whole discussion about 'pretenders'. I am willing to have that discussion as well if you want.
EDIT: We can examine the passage from any biblical source your prefer, I have no axe to grind in that regard.
I have no problem with most versions of scripture, some seem to be less accurate in their accounts, I do usually like to stay with the main versions because most are widely accepted, I personally like the NASV because of it's more literal tendencies. I do however use three to four versions to help in study and will call on those I know who have a good grasp on the Greek and Hebrew. I do not use the King James any more, the old English is not my thing and we have learned more about the ancient languages since the King James translation.
If you want to discuss the pretenders I will be glad to, start where ever you want to and we can go from there. One thing though many here will want to get involved, I will only respond to you unless thy have a valid question or statement. It can get confusing trying to answer several people.
Thanks for the good discussion and sorry for the assumptions I'll try to refrain from old habits I've formed here.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
RE: Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 14, 2014 at 5:27 am
(May 14, 2014 at 1:53 am)Godschild Wrote: You can't just wish God away, though He could wish you away, understand?
GC
Ok, I'll set the criteria for your xtian god's existence as his ability to wish me away. Oh, look at that, I'm still here. Coincidentally, the following gods have also been unable to wish me away;
~1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.~
~Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." - Jesus Christ.~
RE: Man Requests Satanic Prayer Before Town Council Meeting
May 14, 2014 at 8:05 am
GC is ridiculous. He believes the Bible, except the parts that are inconvenient to him. I'm sure God is pleased.
The first part of Matthew 6, before the example of the Lord's Prayer, is an explicit admonishment for outward displays of faith; whether manifested in prayer, charity, or fasting.
Christian leaders praying in public for 200 years only means Christian leaders have been disobeying God for 200 years.
One can defend faith without praying in public. Using Christ's teachings against one another to excuse disobedience is worse in my opinion than a simple transgression.
The idea that Christ excuses sincere believers from the tenets of Matthew 6 is laughable. Who exactly do you think Christ is talking to?
GC asked
Quote:...then why not ask God in public for His help.
The easy answer is because God tells followers not to.
GC goes on to say that the verse isn't about prayer when in fact it explicitly gives guidance regarding the proper execution of prayer; another meaningless assertion. These passages in Matthew do not constitute a parable.
Despite the frequency of occurrence, I am always amazed how those that accept the Bible as the inspired word of God are so cavalier with its contents.