Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 7:27 pm
(July 19, 2014 at 6:28 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: (July 18, 2014 at 8:19 am)Blackout Wrote: Can I ask how does the US get so many sentences wrong? Is there a cause? For instance Japan still has capital punishment, but they very rarely use it, this year the first execution was on June I think.
There is no cause. You simply can't be 100% certain.
And anything less than 100% certainty in regards to capital punishment should be 100% unacceptable, even if you think it's okay for the state to carry out vengeance killing in the name of 'justice'.
Oh I dislike that argument, by a very simple reason - Everyone who is considered guilty IS 100% guilty. All of those people who were innocent are 100% guilty when convicted, it's not possible to be sentenced to anything without being 100% guilty. The argument of 'we need to be 100% sure' is very volatile. People who were innocent were considered sometime 100% guilty, like all convicts are.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 67172
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 7:29 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2014 at 7:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You can be 100% certain that a person has been convicted (is "guilty"), you can't be 100% certain that a person actually committed the crime. I'm a stickler for the terms myself. I like to remind people that there are no guilty people who do not get convicted. It's subtle, but important in forming an argument...lol, fucking lawyers.
The notion being expressed is not one of their legal status, but of whether or not their legal status is indicative of actual culpability. If we can;t make the two terms synonymous, we're accepting some number of people getting hit over the head with a brick for something they were not, in any sense beyond a system, culpable for or "guilty" of.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 7:31 pm
(July 19, 2014 at 7:29 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You can be 100% certain that a person has been convicted (is "guilty"), you can't be 100% certain that a person actually committed the crime. I'm a stickler for the terms myself.
Correct. I'm just saying that the argument of being 100% sure the person factually committed the crime is volatile because innocents were sentenced with the same certainty as actual criminals. When someone is considered guilty they are considered 100% guilty, in fact there is no such thing as being half guilty, unless you have a mental incapacity.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 69247
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
259
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 7:34 pm
(July 19, 2014 at 5:27 pm)Chad32 Wrote: If there's a problem with getting overworked defense attorneys, then that's a problem that needs dealing with.
I agree. Who is going to get the taxpayers to foot the bill?
Posts: 9176
Threads: 76
Joined: November 21, 2013
Reputation:
40
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 7:43 pm
(July 19, 2014 at 7:34 pm)Minimalist Wrote: (July 19, 2014 at 5:27 pm)Chad32 Wrote: If there's a problem with getting overworked defense attorneys, then that's a problem that needs dealing with.
I agree. Who is going to get the taxpayers to foot the bill?
Surely someone who knows more about economics than me.
Posts: 67172
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 7:51 pm
The state, Chad, would be the who - but the state doesn't have any incentive to do so, further, they have every incentive not to.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 5598
Threads: 112
Joined: July 16, 2012
Reputation:
74
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 8:25 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2014 at 8:26 pm by Ryantology.)
(July 19, 2014 at 7:27 pm)Blackout Wrote: Oh I dislike that argument, by a very simple reason - Everyone who is considered guilty IS 100% guilty. All of those people who were innocent are 100% guilty when convicted, it's not possible to be sentenced to anything without being 100% guilty. The argument of 'we need to be 100% sure' is very volatile. People who were innocent were considered sometime 100% guilty, like all convicts are.
I don't get why this is relevant.
Unless you can prove guilt with zero percent possibility of error, then no guilty verdict in a court can be considered 100% accurate, and as a result, it is morally wrong to hand down a punishment which is 100% irrevocable.
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 8:28 pm
(July 19, 2014 at 8:25 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: (July 19, 2014 at 7:27 pm)Blackout Wrote: Oh I dislike that argument, by a very simple reason - Everyone who is considered guilty IS 100% guilty. All of those people who were innocent are 100% guilty when convicted, it's not possible to be sentenced to anything without being 100% guilty. The argument of 'we need to be 100% sure' is very volatile. People who were innocent were considered sometime 100% guilty, like all convicts are.
I don't get why this is relevant.
Unless you can prove guilt with zero percent possibility of error, then no guilty verdict in a court can be considered 100% accurate, and as a result, it is morally wrong to hand down a punishment which is 100% irrevocable. You see that's the problem, guilt with zero percent possibility of mistake is highly unlikely, many of those innocent people wrongly convicted were considered to have zero percent chance of being innocent... Every-time someone is sentenced they are considered 100% guilty with no error margin, that's just something the system deduces automatically, if there is no 100% certainty you can't be sentenced for anything... And by the way, the law shouldn't have a moral bias, maybe exceptionally but in generality a law is not meant to reproduce social morals
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
Posts: 67172
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 8:30 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2014 at 8:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Don't have to invoke morality. By our systems own rules some sort of compensation is made to a person who is punished in error. The state effectively becomes a victimizer and the convict the victim. We know it happens, we still need laws - but we do try to address the issue.
They can't compensate a dead man. Due process ends at death, the right to appeal ends at death. The entire system ties itself in knots so that we can extract some good ole eye for eye. Once we've executed someone we have intentionally created a scenario in which all of the protections that law affords have been stripped from a person - ostensibly, in search of the terminus of law. It's actually pretty damned absurd, just on the face of it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 4659
Threads: 123
Joined: June 27, 2014
Reputation:
40
RE: Death Penalty
July 19, 2014 at 8:42 pm
(July 19, 2014 at 8:30 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Don't have to invoke morality. By our systems own rules some sort of compensation is made to a person who is punished in error. The state effectively becomes a victimizer and the convict the victim. We know it happens, we still need laws - but we do try to address the issue.
They can't compensate a dead man. Due process ends at death, the right to appeal ends at death. The entire system ties itself in knots so that we can extract some good ole eye for eye. Once we've executed someone we have intentionally created a scenario in which all of the protections that law affords have been stripped from a person - ostensibly, in search of the terminus of law. It's actually pretty damned absurd, just on the face of it.
The compensation is aimed at relatives isn't it? I'm talking about pecuniary compensation, logically we can't bring back the dead
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
|
