Scientific method proves order cannot exist w/o intelligence

[Dotard]

I will admit that God's imaginary the second atheists admit God exists.

I exist.


Your turn.

[rjh4 is back]

Hence why I reject materialism, on the basis that although it's very nice to believe that physical matter and energy is all there is, you can't prove it either way. Materialism is useful, however, for science, since science by definition deals with the material world.

Adrian, in past discussions with you on origins it certainly seems to me like you were using materialistic presuppositions as a basis for your argumentation and yet you say here that you reject materialism. So what areas of your thinking does this rejection of materialism affect and how does it affect this area? Or do you merely reject materialism on an intellectual agnostic basis, effectively living you life as a materialist? (I am not trying to be argumentative here. I am just curious as your quote above seems (but is not necessarily) inconsistent.)

[chatpilot]

Arguing from the bible or its so called divine authority is counter productive and at the same time invalid in this type of discussion, since in order to do so everyone would have to accept the bible as a divine source of revelation. As atheists I can say with much confidence that I speak for all atheists when I say that we don't accept the bible as the word of god or of divine inspiration. In my opinion any atheist who does is quite rare indeed. I have stated many times that one thing I have issue with is where does man get his idea or concept of god or gods per say? Gods were in my view created by man to explain what was once unknown to man in a pre-scientific age. There is plenty of evidence to support this in world mythologies that date back thousands of years ago. As knowledge grew those myths also had to be modified to try to keep up with mans ever expanding knowledge of the world and universe we inhabit.

Everything Christians claim to know about their god (characteristics, personality, his laws etc.) come from the bible. The bible is the foundation of all of Christianity and any Christian who disagrees with that is in my opinion not a Christian but something else. Christians or any theists for that matter cannot prove that god or gods exist because god only exists in the mind. What you claim to feel is highly subjective since feelings are subject to interpretation by the one feeling them based on what knowledge he associates with those feelings. Thus, feelings are invalid as well. There is no scientific way to prove the existence of god because science and faith are two systems of thought that are completely inconsistent with one another.

[Rhizomorph13]

Everything Christians claim to know about their god (characteristics, personality, his laws etc.) come from the bible.

...and their own wishes about how god should be. For example, my brother knows that God accepts homosexuality and only forbids it for straight people. This is only one in a parade of kooky beliefs he has! I am sure there are many more that you could remember from talks with theists. I used to think that God was probably a little Asian boy with a shaved head; kinda like The Golden Child. At first it was a goof but then I mind judoed myself into thinking that I was receiving a revelation about the nature of God. LOL /facepalm

Rhizo

[chatpilot]

I agree Rhizo,I forgot to mention from their own imaginations too. Christians love to cherry pick the bible to suit their life styles and personal beliefs.

[rjh4 is back]

There is plenty of evidence to support this in world mythologies that date back thousands even millions of years ago.

Just out of interest CP...what world mythologies date back millions of years ago?

[chatpilot]

Sorry I meant thousands and kept going dammit! Good call there rjh4 I just edited my previous post to exclude the error you pointed out.

[downbeatplumb]

There is plenty of evidence to support this in world mythologies that date back thousands even millions of years ago.

Just out of interest CP...what world mythologies date back millions of years ago?

Although I agree that it would be quite likely that primitive humans indulged in some sort of religious nonsence, I too would like to hear of any evidence that there is from millions of years ago.

[chatpilot]

dbp stop rubbing it in it was an honest mistake geeze or is it geesh or gosh? Whatever!

[Tiberius]

Hence why I reject materialism, on the basis that although it's very nice to believe that physical matter and energy is all there is, you can't prove it either way. Materialism is useful, however, for science, since science by definition deals with the material world.

Adrian, in past discussions with you on origins it certainly seems to me like you were using materialistic presuppositions as a basis for your argumentation and yet you say here that you reject materialism. So what areas of your thinking does this rejection of materialism affect and how does it affect this area? Or do you merely reject materialism on an intellectual agnostic basis, effectively living you life as a materialist? (I am not trying to be argumentative here. I am just curious as your quote above seems (but is not necessarily) inconsistent.)

Origins is a scientific question, hence why materialism is used to answer it (as I stated above). Of course, science has no way of knowing whether the universe didn't just come into being last Thursday and that everything was crafted to look older by some kind of extra-dimensional being. Since the possibility that this happened isn't 0, it could be how it all happened.

However, if the material evidence tells a certain story, and there isn't any other reason to disbelieve it, science will follow that evidence, and so will a lot of people rationally.

I reject materialism on the level that materialism is defined as "energy and matter is all that exists". I can't make that statement and be intellectually honest, since I do not have this knowledge. However, that isn't to say that making an assumption of materialism in certain subjects (science specifically) doesn't lead to good results, because it very clearly does. The material world does exist, and it seems to act very well on it's own, but "seeming" and "being" are very different things.

Unless there is a good reason to believe that something other than material happened, the material evidence is usually the best way to go. The material evidence says that the universe began 13.7 billion years ago. It *could* have begun 6,000 years ago, with various supernatural occurrences making it look like it began 13.7 billion years earlier, but there isn't any good reason to believe such a thing.

So I don't ask for "evidence" that God exists, I ask for "reasoning". Logical arguments would convince me that a God existed, but no such arguments have been convincing as of yet. All of them either rely on presuppositions that cannot be verified themselves, or faulty logic and fallacies.