Evidence of the Bible's Validity

[The Valkyrie]

Sorry but you have had a number of responses here, including one from me, that addressed the vagueness of prophecies.

It seems you chose to ignore most of those, however.

Your responses were more intelligent than most, so I apologize.

Yes, I have had a number of responses. And yes, I certainly am ignoring most of them, because most of them are unintelligent, swear-ridden attacks on religion rather than logical discussion.

You bring up a valid point about the vagueness of prophecy. Certain prophecies are vague, but others are too specific to be coincidence. I will try to explain more of these further on in the discussion.

I have yet to read a clear biblical prophecie. THey're all vague and/or made up of word salad. Some of that may be down to verious interpretations and translations over the centuries, but they would honestly be more valid if they were clear and concise: "On this day, this will happen in this place."

Biblical prophecies remind me of the "prophecies" of Nostradamus: easily interpreted to mean what you want them to mean, after the events have supposedly occurred. Which is why no one who equated any of the prophecies to 911 did so before the attacks occurred.

[Jackalope]

Numerology. LOL.

Not the same thing. This is not about finding the meaning in the numbers of certain words and names, simply finding the numbers themselves. Not going into the fact the number means anything in particular other than that it was predicted.

According to one interpretation of innumerable interpretations. Interpretations see that verse as not being prophecy at all.

What makes your interpretation the correct one?

Incidentally, the earliest known scroll of that verse has the number of the beast being 616, further clouding your claim of prophecy.

I hope this wasn't your best material.

[Ravenshire]

What are your thoughts thus far? I am completely open for alternative explanation.

How about, numerology is bullshit. Is that a good enough alternative explanation for you?

[Silver]

The Book of Revelation was written around the year 95 A.D.

Umm, no. It was not.
It was written much later. I believe hundreds of years later.

[JimmyNeutron]

What sources support your claim?

[Ravenshire]

I was not looking for the meaning behind the numbers, merely the numbers behind the words.

And yet, you present us with a name (not really, but we'll run with that) that "adds up" to a number with very specific meaning in most christer beliefs.

Numerology, plain and simple.

[Lemonvariable72]

First off, hello jimmy, and welcome to our forum. You seem like a reasonaly intelligent person and I hope to see more of you here.


To counter your point, there are three ways in which prophecies are "fulfilled".
1. They are vague and usually need to be interpreted. Much like for example modern day laws.
2. They are written after the event occurs.
3. They are essentially guesses. For example lets say country A is invading country B. A prophet comes up in country B says "Woah you will be destroyed!" Now if country B fails and is destroyed, he is a prophet. Howvere if country B wins the war he is just Harold Camping.

Hello, and thank you. You appear to be the first person here to come up with an intelligent response.

1. That is true. Some of these prophecies are vague and up for interpretation.

2. Yes, I try to focus only on prophecies that must have been written before the event. The Book of Revelation, for example, was written sometime during the first or MAYBE second century. The fulfillment of most of those prophecies has not yet occurred.

3. Yes, some of them are pretty much guesses. The more specific they are, though, the harder they are to guess. For example, if I say "A car will drive past on this road in exactly ten minutes" that wouldn't be a very impressive prediction. But if I said it would be a Red Honda Pilot, then it would be less likely that it was a mere guess. More so if I described the car AND the driver. Certain prophecies in the Bible are so complex that it becomes very unlikely that it could just happen by coincidence.

Jimmy lets do a little simple math here. The angel appeared to john right?
Jesus was born in 6 b.c killed at 33 so that means he died in 27 AD. The very youngest john couldve been 13 when he started following jesus and bear in mind it is unlikely he started that young. so he followed for 3 years before his death and john was 13 thirteen when the ministry started that would mean he was in 11 AD at the latest. That would make him 84 by the time revelations was written. The average roman life expectancy was 45 if you survived till the age of 5. Hell even with modern medical care most men today don't reach 84.

Good point. The author of the book identifies himself as "John" but there is some debate as to which John this is. Many say that he is John the Apostle, while others claim that he could be another John, whom some refer to as John of Patmos. This also explains the debate over when the book was written. Likely, the people who believe that he is John the Apostle are the same ones who believe the book was written is 60 A.D. rather than 95 A.D.

So you want to trust this book despite not knowing its author or date of authorship?
Also do you have a example of clearly worded prophecy that was before the stated event and has been fulfilled?

---

First off, hello jimmy, and welcome to our forum. You seem like a reasonaly intelligent person and I hope to see more of you here.


To counter your point, there are three ways in which prophecies are "fulfilled".
1. They are vague and usually need to be interpreted. Much like for example modern day laws.
2. They are written after the event occurs.
3. They are essentially guesses. For example lets say country A is invading country B. A prophet comes up in country B says "Woah you will be destroyed!" Now if country B fails and is destroyed, he is a prophet. Howvere if country B wins the war he is just Harold Camping.

Hello, and thank you. You appear to be the first person here to come up with an intelligent response.

1. That is true. Some of these prophecies are vague and up for interpretation.

2. Yes, I try to focus only on prophecies that must have been written before the event. The Book of Revelation, for example, was written sometime during the first or MAYBE second century. The fulfillment of most of those prophecies has not yet occurred.

3. Yes, some of them are pretty much guesses. The more specific they are, though, the harder they are to guess. For example, if I say "A car will drive past on this road in exactly ten minutes" that wouldn't be a very impressive prediction. But if I said it would be a Red Honda Pilot, then it would be less likely that it was a mere guess. More so if I described the car AND the driver. Certain prophecies in the Bible are so complex that it becomes very unlikely that it could just happen by coincidence.

Jimmy lets do a little simple math here. The angel appeared to john right?
Jesus was born in 6 b.c killed at 33 so that means he died in 27 AD. The very youngest john couldve been 13 when he started following jesus and bear in mind it is unlikely he started that young. so he followed for 3 years before his death and john was 13 thirteen when the ministry started that would mean he was in 11 AD at the latest. That would make him 84 by the time revelations was written. The average roman life expectancy was 45 if you survived till the age of 5. Hell even with modern medical care most men today don't reach 84.

Good point. The author of the book identifies himself as "John" but there is some debate as to which John this is. Many say that he is John the Apostle, while others claim that he could be another John, whom some refer to as John of Patmos. This also explains the debate over when the book was written. Likely, the people who believe that he is John the Apostle are the same ones who believe the book was written is 60 A.D. rather than 95 A.D.

So you want to trust this book despite not knowing its author or date of authorship?
Also do you have a example of clearly worded prophecy that was before the stated event and has been fulfilled?

[Rampant.A.I.]

I see all the debunking videos I posted were promptly ignored.

Theomatics is actually a reapplied method of the same claims made about "Torah Codes" that were common in the 80's and 90's. This was historically rebuked by a mathematician showing similar results could be achieved by running Hermen Melville's "Moby Dick" through a similar process.[

Source of the above codes: http://www.biblecode.com/struct.html

Reasons it works: http://blog.asmartbear.com/pattern-seeking-fallacy.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_Fallacy

Reasons it's evidence of nothing but random pattern generation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3VgQgxiqE

[Lemonvariable72]

This one is kinda complicated, so here goes:

The Book of Revelation was written around the year 95 A.D. You can read up on that HERE.

In Revelation 17 an angel is explaining the vision of John.

Fist can you demonstrate that he was indeed visited by a angel and that this angel was as he said he is?

He speaks about seven hills, saying "They are seven Kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while." This verse is translated various ways, all to the effect that the 7th king must reign for a short time.
So he's saying that there are seven kings that all have something in common, that make them all part of this set of seven. It then says that the beast is the eighth and is of the seven. So the antichrist shares this same commonality with the seven kings. It is widely accepted that the antichrist is likely to be descended from the Romans, specifically the Holy Roman Empire. Here is a big reason why:

Let me stop you here. The holy roman empire has as much to do with Romans as France does to french fries. They are descendants of the Romans from that area but rather they are descendant from the Germanic tribes that toppled Rome like the Frisians, franks, and Saxons. The holy roman empire was a title meant to invoke the glory of Rome, but in fact had nothing to do with the roman empire except occasionally kissing the popes ass.

There have been exactly seven emperors of the Holy Roman Empire with the name "Charles" and you can read a complete list HERE. You will notice that the 7th Charles reigned for only about 3 years. The logical next step in following this lead is to look for an eighth ruler of the HRE named Charles. Sure enough, there is an heir to the throne of the United Kingdom (which is descended, of course, from the HRE) who is named Charles. The current Prince of Wales. He is set to become King of Great Britain after the current monarch.

I would like to mention that is unlikely Charles will ever sit on the throne. The reason for this is because he has married a divorced woman, so the throne will fall to william when the old bag finally dies. Even if he does, Being the king of england would be a terrible position for a antichrist, as the king or queen of england has NO POWER. Speaking as a canadian and resident of a commonwealth country, our prime minster right would likely tell a monarch to piss off if they tried to affect any policy.

Now, let's take a look at more of the prophecy that focuses on the identity of the antichrist. Revelation 13 contains one of the most famous passages in the Bible: "Here is the wisdom: let him who has understanding calculate the number of beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666." Virtually everyone knows of this piece of scripture. Many people have tried to calculate the number of the beast using various number systems. For example, increments of 6. A = 6, B = 12, etc.

There is only one system that actually makes sense here, the system of hebrew gematria. This is the system with which John would have been familiar. In hebrew, there are no numerical digits. Instead they use hebrew letters as numbers. Aleph, the first letter, is 1. Bet, the second, is 2, and so on. Once you reach the 10th letter, you start counting by tens. The 11th letter is 20, the 12th letter is 30, etc. When you reach 100, you count by hundreds. There are 22 letters in the hebrew alephbet. This means that the highest number is 400. This chart shows it all (hebrew is written right to left):



We can apply this same system to english letters as well. Note that we must stop at 400 or else we wouldn't be using the hebrew system, thus the last for letters of the english alphabet must be mapped to 0:

A = 1
B = 2
C = 3
D = 4
E = 5
F = 6
G = 7
H = 8
I = 9
J = 10
K = 20
L = 30
M = 40
N = 50
O = 60
P = 70
Q = 80
R = 90
S = 100
T = 200
U = 300
V = 400
W = 0
X = 0
Y = 0
Z = 0

The official title of the man in question is "Charles, Prince of Wales" or as some call him "Prince Charles of Wales." Either way, the following still applies:

C = 3
H = 8
A = 1
R = 90
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

P = 70
R = 90
I = 9
N = 50
C = 3
E = 5

O = 60
F = 6

W = 0
A = 1
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

I just want to point out that applying gematria to english makes fuck all for sense as they are about as far apart in linguistic development and eglish and chinese.
Please continue

Add them together yourself if you like. Your result will be 666. This could be dismissed as a coincidence. But that explanation becomes less likely when you consider the following:

The name of the man in question in hebrew letters adds up to 666 as well. These two languages are important for this reason. If the Prince of Wales is the man spoken of in Revelation, then his name should add up to 666 in his native language (english in this case), as this is his given name. It should also add up in hebrew, as this is the language of the people to whom God was giving this prophecy. I won't go into it here, but the name also adds up to 666 in Greek, which was the trade language of John's day.

So, his name matches the other 7 kings (Charles)
His name adds up to 666 in English, Hebrew and Greek
The name "Charles" means "Manly" ("It is the number of a MAN")

What are your thoughts thus far? I am completely open for alternative explanation.

Holy crap you don't even know what language the book was wrtten in. It was not written in hebrew at all, But in koine greek. On top of that your basing your assumptions on biblical hebrew, which was a dead language by the time of jesus and those still spoke hebrew spoke mishniac hebrew which very different. At that those people accounted for a small minoirty and most people would have spoken greek or aramiac.

[JimmyNeutron]

---

This one is kinda complicated, so here goes:

The Book of Revelation was written around the year 95 A.D. You can read up on that HERE.

In Revelation 17 an angel is explaining the vision of John.

Fist can you demonstrate that he was indeed visited by a angel and that this angel was as he said he is?

He speaks about seven hills, saying "They are seven Kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while." This verse is translated various ways, all to the effect that the 7th king must reign for a short time.
So he's saying that there are seven kings that all have something in common, that make them all part of this set of seven. It then says that the beast is the eighth and is of the seven. So the antichrist shares this same commonality with the seven kings. It is widely accepted that the antichrist is likely to be descended from the Romans, specifically the Holy Roman Empire. Here is a big reason why:

Let me stop you here. The holy roman empire has as much to do with Romans as France does to french fries. They are descendants of the Romans from that area but rather they are descendant from the Germanic tribes that toppled Rome like the Frisians, franks, and Saxons. The holy roman empire was a title meant to invoke the glory of Rome, but in fact had nothing to do with the roman empire except occasionally kissing the popes ass.

There have been exactly seven emperors of the Holy Roman Empire with the name "Charles" and you can read a complete list HERE. You will notice that the 7th Charles reigned for only about 3 years. The logical next step in following this lead is to look for an eighth ruler of the HRE named Charles. Sure enough, there is an heir to the throne of the United Kingdom (which is descended, of course, from the HRE) who is named Charles. The current Prince of Wales. He is set to become King of Great Britain after the current monarch.

I would like to mention that is unlikely Charles will ever sit on the throne. The reason for this is because he has married a divorced woman, so the throne will fall to william when the old bag finally dies. Even if he does, Being the king of england would be a terrible position for a antichrist, as the king or queen of england has NO POWER. Speaking as a canadian and resident of a commonwealth country, our prime minster right would likely tell a monarch to piss off if they tried to affect any policy.

Now, let's take a look at more of the prophecy that focuses on the identity of the antichrist. Revelation 13 contains one of the most famous passages in the Bible: "Here is the wisdom: let him who has understanding calculate the number of beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666." Virtually everyone knows of this piece of scripture. Many people have tried to calculate the number of the beast using various number systems. For example, increments of 6. A = 6, B = 12, etc.

There is only one system that actually makes sense here, the system of hebrew gematria. This is the system with which John would have been familiar. In hebrew, there are no numerical digits. Instead they use hebrew letters as numbers. Aleph, the first letter, is 1. Bet, the second, is 2, and so on. Once you reach the 10th letter, you start counting by tens. The 11th letter is 20, the 12th letter is 30, etc. When you reach 100, you count by hundreds. There are 22 letters in the hebrew alephbet. This means that the highest number is 400. This chart shows it all (hebrew is written right to left):



We can apply this same system to english letters as well. Note that we must stop at 400 or else we wouldn't be using the hebrew system, thus the last for letters of the english alphabet must be mapped to 0:

A = 1
B = 2
C = 3
D = 4
E = 5
F = 6
G = 7
H = 8
I = 9
J = 10
K = 20
L = 30
M = 40
N = 50
O = 60
P = 70
Q = 80
R = 90
S = 100
T = 200
U = 300
V = 400
W = 0
X = 0
Y = 0
Z = 0

The official title of the man in question is "Charles, Prince of Wales" or as some call him "Prince Charles of Wales." Either way, the following still applies:

C = 3
H = 8
A = 1
R = 90
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

P = 70
R = 90
I = 9
N = 50
C = 3
E = 5

O = 60
F = 6

W = 0
A = 1
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

I just want to point out that applying gematria to english makes fuck all for sense as they are about as far apart in linguistic development and eglish and chinese.
Please continue

Add them together yourself if you like. Your result will be 666. This could be dismissed as a coincidence. But that explanation becomes less likely when you consider the following:

The name of the man in question in hebrew letters adds up to 666 as well. These two languages are important for this reason. If the Prince of Wales is the man spoken of in Revelation, then his name should add up to 666 in his native language (english in this case), as this is his given name. It should also add up in hebrew, as this is the language of the people to whom God was giving this prophecy. I won't go into it here, but the name also adds up to 666 in Greek, which was the trade language of John's day.

So, his name matches the other 7 kings (Charles)
His name adds up to 666 in English, Hebrew and Greek
The name "Charles" means "Manly" ("It is the number of a MAN")

What are your thoughts thus far? I am completely open for alternative explanation.

Holy crap you don't even know what language the book was wrtten in. It was not written in hebrew at all, But in koine greek. On top of that your basing your assumptions on biblical hebrew, which was a dead language by the time of jesus and those still spoke hebrew spoke mishniac hebrew which very different. At that those people accounted for a small minoirty and most people would have spoken greek or aramiac.

---

Actually, I DO know the language in which the book was written. I know it was greek, I didn't think I'd have to say something so obvious. If you read my post thoroughly you will see that I did in fact mention that the trade language of the day was greek. You should also notice that I also didn't say that the book was written in hebrew. I said it was for the Hebrew people. The name of Prince Charles equals 666 in English (Charles' native language), Hebrew (Israel's native language) and Greek (the common language of the day).

---

I see all the debunking videos I posted were promptly ignored.

That is because they do not apply here. I did not use the bible code, and this isn't pattern seeking. If you really think that it is, then please show me where else in history an interpretation of the 7 Kings can be found.

In addition, to all those saying that the prophecies are too vague, there is a limited range of interpretation for them. Any given prophecy can only be stretched so far. So the more prophecies that can be interpreted to fit one thing, the less likely it is to be a coincidence. This is common sense. If I said that I was looking for someone with a red shirt, that could apply to many people. If I said they also had black hair, that limits it some more. The more I describe them, the fewer people there are who it could possibly be. The bible has a wealth of prophecies regarding the antichrist. The odds of any one person fitting all of them are incredibly slim.