Evidence of the Bible's Validity

[rexbeccarox]

Earlier in the thread you said you were going to name some fulfilled prophecies. Now would be a good time, don't you think?

[JimmyNeutron]

I was not looking for the meaning behind the numbers, merely the numbers behind the words.

And yet, you present us with a name (not really, but we'll run with that) that "adds up" to a number with very specific meaning in most christer beliefs.

Numerology, plain and simple.

Nope, not numerology. It's not some mystical meaning to this number. It's the fact that it was predicted that we are concerned with. If I say that a short man with black hair and a mustache in a red car is going to drive up to you and ask for directions at exactly 7:32 tomorrow evening, that would make that event significant simply because it was foretold, not because of what it is.

BTW, Congratulations on quitting smoking.

[Lemonvariable72]

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Fist can you demonstrate that he was indeed visited by a angel and that this angel was as he said he is?
Let me stop you here. The holy roman empire has as much to do with Romans as France does to french fries. They are descendants of the Romans from that area but rather they are descendant from the Germanic tribes that toppled Rome like the Frisians, franks, and Saxons. The holy roman empire was a title meant to invoke the glory of Rome, but in fact had nothing to do with the roman empire except occasionally kissing the popes ass.

There have been exactly seven emperors of the Holy Roman Empire with the name "Charles" and you can read a complete list HERE. You will notice that the 7th Charles reigned for only about 3 years. The logical next step in following this lead is to look for an eighth ruler of the HRE named Charles. Sure enough, there is an heir to the throne of the United Kingdom (which is descended, of course, from the HRE) who is named Charles. The current Prince of Wales. He is set to become King of Great Britain after the current monarch.

I would like to mention that is unlikely Charles will ever sit on the throne. The reason for this is because he has married a divorced woman, so the throne will fall to william when the old bag finally dies. Even if he does, Being the king of england would be a terrible position for a antichrist, as the king or queen of england has NO POWER. Speaking as a canadian and resident of a commonwealth country, our prime minster right would likely tell a monarch to piss off if they tried to affect any policy.

Now, let's take a look at more of the prophecy that focuses on the identity of the antichrist. Revelation 13 contains one of the most famous passages in the Bible: "Here is the wisdom: let him who has understanding calculate the number of beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666." Virtually everyone knows of this piece of scripture. Many people have tried to calculate the number of the beast using various number systems. For example, increments of 6. A = 6, B = 12, etc.

There is only one system that actually makes sense here, the system of hebrew gematria. This is the system with which John would have been familiar. In hebrew, there are no numerical digits. Instead they use hebrew letters as numbers. Aleph, the first letter, is 1. Bet, the second, is 2, and so on. Once you reach the 10th letter, you start counting by tens. The 11th letter is 20, the 12th letter is 30, etc. When you reach 100, you count by hundreds. There are 22 letters in the hebrew alephbet. This means that the highest number is 400. This chart shows it all (hebrew is written right to left):



We can apply this same system to english letters as well. Note that we must stop at 400 or else we wouldn't be using the hebrew system, thus the last for letters of the english alphabet must be mapped to 0:

A = 1
B = 2
C = 3
D = 4
E = 5
F = 6
G = 7
H = 8
I = 9
J = 10
K = 20
L = 30
M = 40
N = 50
O = 60
P = 70
Q = 80
R = 90
S = 100
T = 200
U = 300
V = 400
W = 0
X = 0
Y = 0
Z = 0

The official title of the man in question is "Charles, Prince of Wales" or as some call him "Prince Charles of Wales." Either way, the following still applies:

C = 3
H = 8
A = 1
R = 90
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

P = 70
R = 90
I = 9
N = 50
C = 3
E = 5

O = 60
F = 6

W = 0
A = 1
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

I just want to point out that applying gematria to english makes fuck all for sense as they are about as far apart in linguistic development and eglish and chinese.
Please continue

Add them together yourself if you like. Your result will be 666. This could be dismissed as a coincidence. But that explanation becomes less likely when you consider the following:

The name of the man in question in hebrew letters adds up to 666 as well. These two languages are important for this reason. If the Prince of Wales is the man spoken of in Revelation, then his name should add up to 666 in his native language (english in this case), as this is his given name. It should also add up in hebrew, as this is the language of the people to whom God was giving this prophecy. I won't go into it here, but the name also adds up to 666 in Greek, which was the trade language of John's day.

So, his name matches the other 7 kings (Charles)
His name adds up to 666 in English, Hebrew and Greek
The name "Charles" means "Manly" ("It is the number of a MAN")

What are your thoughts thus far? I am completely open for alternative explanation.

Holy crap you don't even know what language the book was wrtten in. It was not written in hebrew at all, But in koine greek. On top of that your basing your assumptions on biblical hebrew, which was a dead language by the time of jesus and those still spoke hebrew spoke mishniac hebrew which very different. At that those people accounted for a small minoirty and most people would have spoken greek or aramiac.

Actually, I DO know the language in which the book was written. I know it was greek, I didn't think I'd have to say something so obvious. If you read my post thoroughly you will see that I did in fact mention that the trade language of the day was greek. You should also notice that I also didn't say that the book was written in hebrew. I said it was for the Hebrew people. The name of Prince Charles equals 666 in English (Charles' native language), Hebrew (Israel's native language) and Greek (the common language of the day).

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I see all the debunking videos I posted were promptly ignored.

That is because they do not apply here. I did not use the bible code, and this isn't pattern seeking. If you really think that it is, then please show me where else in history an interpretation of the 7 Kings can be found.

In addition, to all those saying that the prophecies are too vague, there is a limited range of interpretation for them. Any given prophecy can only be stretched so far. So the more prophecies that can be interpreted to fit one thing, the less likely it is to be a coincidence. This is common sense. If I said that I was looking for someone with a red shirt, that could apply to many people. If I said they also had black hair, that limits it some more. The more I describe them, the fewer people there are who it could possibly be. The bible has a wealth of prophecies regarding the antichrist. The odds of any one person fitting all of them are incredibly slim.

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Then enlighten me, was is the phrase Charles the prince of wales in koine Greek and mishnaic Hebrew?

[JimmyNeutron]

Earlier in the thread you said you were going to name some fulfilled prophecies. Now would be a good time, don't you think?

I don't think I said that, actually. The point of this thread is to talk about prophecy that is being, or will be, fulfilled. Should these prophecies be fulfilled, hopefully someone who reads this thread remembers this discussion and sees the correlation.

[Rampant.A.I.]

"Not pattern seeking" he says, applying a Hebrew code to the Koine Greek bible.

What exactly does Prince Charles have to do with anything at all again?

Charles is an incredibly common name. As mentioned by LemonVariable, the number of the beast is 616, not 666.

While this was interpreted to be a gematric code as it was thought to refer to Caligula, your decoding method uses the wrong alphabet, and a lot of inference that doesn't seem to be supported by anything at all.

Prince Charles is not a King.

You're desperately searching for patterns where none exist, outside what your imagination and a wild decoder can whip up.

[Lemonvariable72]

"Not pattern seeking" he says, applying a Hebrew code to the Koine Greek bible.

What exactly does Prince Charles have to do with anything at all again?

Charles is an incredibly common name. As mentioned by LemonVariable, the number of the beast is 616, not 666.

I didn't mention that, but that is what the oldest copy of revelations does say now that you mention it.

[Rampant.A.I.]

This is reminding me more and more of Mike Leigh's "Naked":

http://youtu.be/70-y0AwwCOk

Did you ever get the felling you're being followed?

Are you not familiar with the Revelations of Saint John, the final book of the bible, prophesizing the apocalypse? He forced everyone to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead so that no one shall be able to sell unless he has out that mark which is the name of the beast and the number of his name and the number is six, six, six.
What can such a specific prophecy mean? What is the mark?
Well the mark is the bar-code. The ubiquitous bar-code that you'll find on every (something) and every (packet of jonnies) and every (poxy-pork-pie). And every bar-code is divided into two sections by three markers and those markers are always represented by the

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number six. Six, six, six!
And what does it say? No one shall be able to buy or sell without that mark.
And what they're planning to do, in order to eradicate all credit card fraud and in order to precipitate a totally cashless society...what they're planning to do and they've already tested it on the American troops, they're going to subcutaneously laser-tattoo that mark onto your right hand or onto your forehead. They're going to replace plastic with flesh!

Fact!

In the same book of Revelations, when the seven seals are broken open on the day of judgment and the seven angels blow their trumpets, when the third angel blows her trumpet, wormwood will fall from the sky and wormwood will poison a third part of the waters and a third part of all the land and many, many, many, many people will die.
And you know what the Russian translation of wormwood is? Chernobyl!

Fact!

On August the eighteenth, nineteen ninety-nine, the planets of our solar system are going to line up into the shape of a cross.
They're going to line up in the big signs of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius, and Scorpio which just happen to correspond to the four beasts of the apocalypse as mentioned in the book of Daniel.

Another fact!

Do you think that the amoeba ever dreamed that it would evolve into the frog?
And when that first frog shimmied out of the water and employed its vocal chords in order to attract a mate or when it tired of gravity, do you think that that frog ever imagined that incipient croak would evolve into all the languages of the world, into all the literature of the word, possibly?
And just as that froggie could never have conceived of Shakespeare, so we can never possibly imagine our destiny.
Look, if you take the whole of time represented by just one year and put it in the first few moments of the first of January, it's a long way to go. And no, we're not going to sprout extra limbs and wings and things

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because evolution itself is evolving. When it comes, the apocalypse itself will a part of the process of that leap of evolution. By the very definition of apocalypse, mankind must cease to exist, at least in a material form. We'll have evolved into something that transcends matter, into a species of pure thought. Are you with me?

Which is also sampled on the track S.A.L.T. by The Orb on the 90's album "Orblivion."

[max-greece]

I don't normally bother with this sort of thing but here goes:

This one is kinda complicated, so here goes:

The Book of Revelation was written around the year 95 A.D. You can read up on that HERE.

In Revelation 17 an angel is explaining the vision of John. He speaks about seven hills, saying "They are seven Kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while." This verse is translated various ways, all to the effect that the 7th king must reign for a short time.

So he's saying that there are seven kings that all have something in common, that make them all part of this set of seven.

Is he saying that? I didn't get that at all. He said "They are 7 kings." To me that's 7 kings sequentially, but OK...

It then says that the beast is the eighth and is of the seven. So the antichrist shares this same commonality with the seven kings.

Well I am not sure you've proven the point that 7 kings doesn't refer to seven sequential kings of somewhere but go on...

It is widely accepted that the antichrist is likely to be descended from the Romans, specifically the Holy Roman Empire. Here is a big reason why:

There have been exactly seven emperors of the Holy Roman Empire with the name "Charles" and you can read a complete list HERE. You will notice that the 7th Charles reigned for only about 3 years. The logical next step in following this lead is to look for an eighth ruler of the HRE named Charles. Sure enough, there is an heir to the throne of the United Kingdom (which is descended, of course, from the HRE) who is named Charles. The current Prince of Wales. He is set to become King of Great Britain after the current monarch.

What's the significance of the name Charles? Why choose that? With your logic it could be 7 kings over 6 foot tall, 7 kings with red hair, 7 kings with pot bellies.

What does interest me, however, is that this now appears to be a prophesy that hasn't yet happened. Do we assume that should Charles never become king you'll accept that this is all wrong?

Now, let's take a look at more of the prophecy that focuses on the identity of the antichrist. Revelation 13 contains one of the most famous passages in the Bible: "Here is the wisdom: let him who has understanding calculate the number of beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666." Virtually everyone knows of this piece of scripture. Many people have tried to calculate the number of the beast using various number systems. For example, increments of 6. A = 6, B = 12, etc.

Well it appears there is some debate about the number 666. Apparently there is now a school of thought that the original number was 616 and it got changed at some point. Obviously 616 makes a right mess of your proof.

There is only one system that actually makes sense here, the system of hebrew gematria. This is the system with which John would have been familiar. In hebrew, there are no numerical digits. Instead they use hebrew letters as numbers. Aleph, the first letter, is 1. Bet, the second, is 2, and so on. Once you reach the 10th letter, you start counting by tens. The 11th letter is 20, the 12th letter is 30, etc. When you reach 100, you count by hundreds. There are 22 letters in the hebrew alephbet. This means that the highest number is 400. This chart shows it all (hebrew is written right to left):



We can apply this same system to english letters as well. Note that we must stop at 400 or else we wouldn't be using the hebrew system, thus the last for letters of the english alphabet must be mapped to 0:

A = 1
B = 2
C = 3
D = 4
E = 5
F = 6
G = 7
H = 8
I = 9
J = 10
K = 20
L = 30
M = 40
N = 50
O = 60
P = 70
Q = 80
R = 90
S = 100
T = 200
U = 300
V = 400
W = 0
X = 0
Y = 0
Z = 0

Right - its a numbering system that isn't numerology - unless you then take it to use it to determine or interpret events and names in which case......its numerology.

The official title of the man in question is "Charles, Prince of Wales" or as some call him "Prince Charles of Wales." Either way, the following still applies:

C = 3
H = 8
A = 1
R = 90
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

P = 70
R = 90
I = 9
N = 50
C = 3
E = 5

O = 60
F = 6

W = 0
A = 1
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

Add them together yourself if you like. Your result will be 666. This could be dismissed as a coincidence. But that explanation becomes less likely when you consider the following:

The name of the man in question in hebrew letters adds up to 666 as well. These two languages are important for this reason. If the Prince of Wales is the man spoken of in Revelation, then his name should add up to 666 in his native language (english in this case), as this is his given name. It should also add up in hebrew, as this is the language of the people to whom God was giving this prophecy. I won't go into it here, but the name also adds up to 666 in Greek, which was the trade language of John's day.

So, his name matches the other 7 kings (Charles)
His name adds up to 666 in English, Hebrew and Greek
The name "Charles" means "Manly" ("It is the number of a MAN")

Of course if he were to become king his name would no longer be Charles, Prince of Wales he would be King Charles the third of England, Scotland (presumably) and Wales- get 666 (or 6160 from that.

What are your thoughts thus far? I am completely open for alternative explanation.

Right I have some questions remaining:

1. Who is the Charles that "is"? ("They are seven Kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes,... ")

2. "he must remain a little while." To which you wrote: "You will notice that the 7th Charles reigned for only about 3 years." Well is 3 years remaining a little while? Seems a stretch to me. Some have ruled for much shorter periods than 3 years. Lady Jane Grey ruled England for 11 days.

3. Accepting that Charles Prince of Wales adds up to 666, and assuming that is the correct number one has to ask if it were true of the other 7 Charles's that you have identified as his predecessors. Did their full names also add up to 666? If not, why the special treatment for the current Charles?

4. "The name "Charles" means "Manly"". Well, maybe according to its Germanic roots (we use those now? How many languages are we allowed to enter into this argument? I wonder what it means in Navaho?

Oh - and there is a school of thought that Charles doesn't actually come from Karl (manly) at all but from Hari (also Germanic) which means army warrior.

Actually there's rather a lot more but I am running out of steam.

Are you seriously saying that Prince Charles is the anti-christ? Have you seen Charles? He's about as scary and dangerous as cold custard.

If Charles doesn't become King? Then what for you?

[popeyespappy]

There be thunder. There be lightning. Therefore Thor mother fuckers!

[Esquilax]

The thing about biblical prophecies that stick out to me most is that people never use them to, you know, predict things?

You'd think the main draw of a prophecy would be that you'd know about things ahead of time and could plan your actions around what you now know to get the maximal advantage from the prediction, but that never happens. All we ever get are post hoc retrofittings of events that have already happened into this or that biblical prophecy; given the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is and behave as though any given prophecy is detailing future events, most theists simply won't, further than distant ramblings about stuff that won't ever affect their lives. It's... odd.

What's also interesting is the lack of accountability here: oh, we'll get claims of one prophecy or another yet to be fulfilled that will come true, but never in any falsifiable way. Never with a date attached, which you'd think would be the only useful thing about a prophecy. Isn't it curious how no theist will ever make a claim that could ever be proved wrong? I'd love it for someone to lay down a proper, iron clad date and stick to that, but we know what happens when theists do that: anyone remember Harold Camping?

Not to mention all the bible prophecies that objectively aren't true, like the one about Tyre falling and never coming back, since it's still around today. Now, you could go through the same contortions as other theists here, OP, and tell us that it isn't the same Tyre, it's a different Tyre for some reason, but that in itself is a problem: how far do you have to bend to preserve your beliefs before those beliefs just break? For some, it seems there's no end to that credulity.

As to your numbers thing... come on, man. You arbitrarily define the alphabet as corresponding to certain numbers based on very little, somehow come to the conclusion that the end of the alphabet must all be zeroes, and then- what a shock!- your random number game pulled from the ether comes up with a potentially significant number? hock:

At best what you've got there is some interesting math homework.