An unorthodox belief in God.

[mickiel]

I am suggesting no such thing, in fact I view intelligence as evidence for god, and agree with intelligent research. I have seen absolutely no well researched evidence that proves god does not exist; none! All the evidence I have seen keeps suggesting that he does. Explain to me how intelligence evolved from nothing. Use your science and explain it to me.

If I do, will you actually look at it, analyze it, think about it for yourself, and if you find it convincing, accept what the evidence suggests?

Or if I do, will you just brush it off and ignore it - resorting to tired apologetics?

Cognitive dissonance can be really uncomfortable, yo.

[btw, not MY science. I'm a science enthusiast, not a scientist.]

I will look at and consider anything you provide. But understand me, I am not trying to convince you or anyone the things I accept as truth. It matters not to me what others accept. Its their right in doing so.

---

I see you're point, but I still disagree; science will continue to take us up, but god is up there somewhere, so science will eventually lead itself and us to god, not push him away. Science can only help explain what has happened, what was done; it got done by a doer!

When we get to that day, I'll accept him as my lord and saviour.

Until then all you're doing is blowing hot air out your ass.

Whatever I am doing, you are my guest on thread, and I refuse to blow out insults to you.

---

Now the universe is far more than dimes on the ground, but I can see deliberate design in it. I can see an anthropic type of principle, which is just more evidence of a god in my view. If the dimes were not balanced by some precise force, it could not be done. If the earth was closer to the sun, it would be too hot and we would not exist. If it was much further away, we could not exist.

No, things in our reality are too deliberate , the earth was obviously well suited for humans.

No, no, and no.

Life is suited to the earth. You have the cart before the horse.

I can go with that, life is suited to earth; and like a tailor suits a suit to a man's body, I view god as the tailor .

[ThePinsir]

I will look at and consider anything you provide. But understand me, I am not trying to convince you or anyone the things I accept as truth. It matters not to me what others accept. Its their right in doing so.

Good. Most theists say shit like that trying to stump us. They don't actually WANT us to provide evidence, but rather they're assuming there is none. I'll start with a link to the evolution of nervous systems, though I'd actually recommend a book on evolution (maybe The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins) so you can get a really good understanding of how evolution works, what it is, what it isn't, and some awesome examples. Seriously, that book answers like everything.

Apparently there is a correlation between brain volume (compared to total body mass, I think) and intelligence. We evolved to have big brains, and it follows, higher intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_o...us_systems

[mickiel]

I will look at and consider anything you provide. But understand me, I am not trying to convince you or anyone the things I accept as truth. It matters not to me what others accept. Its their right in doing so.

Good. Most theists say shit like that trying to stump us. They don't actually WANT us to provide evidence, but rather they're assuming there is none. I'll start with a link to the evolution of nervous systems, though I'd actually recommend a book on evolution (maybe The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins) so you can get a really good understanding of how evolution works, what it is, what it isn't, and some awesome examples. Seriously, that book answers like everything.

Apparently there is a correlation between brain volume (compared to total body mass, I think) and intelligence. We evolved to have big brains, and it follows, higher intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_o...us_systems

This is a serious read, but I am reading it; Here's a little something for you to read;
http://www.leaderu.com/science/bishop.html

[Chas]

No, no, and no.

Life is suited to the earth. You have the cart before the horse.

I can go with that, life is suited to earth; and like a tailor suits a suit to a man's body, I view god as the tailor .

There was, and is, no need for a tailor. Evolution by natural selection explains it.

[ThePinsir]

This is a serious read, but I am reading it; Here's a little something for you to read;
http://www.leaderu.com/science/bishop.html

That entire article was, again, an argument from ignorance, or "god of the gaps". It was also a bit of a straw man. In his conclusion, he stated that quote: "we are the products of random chance".

Evolution, if you'd read a book or two on it you'd learn, is anything BUT random! Natural selection is the driving force - species better adapted to survive do (and reproduce more), and the less suitable individuals are discarded (and reproduce less).

The author is a doctor of exercise science, and so knows a lot about the human body, and is probably intelligent. But he, too, could stand to learn what evolution is and, maybe more importantly, what it isn't.

Is this thread going to turn into a debate on evolution now? We've got like a million lol.

[mickiel]

I can go with that, life is suited to earth; and like a tailor suits a suit to a man's body, I view god as the tailor .

There was, and is, no need for a tailor. Evolution by natural selection explains it.

What selected evolution and natural selection?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

The evidence I like using is " Civilization", excuse me for using caps again, a habit. I think some 30-50,00 years ago, god created adam, the first human he gave consciousness. Knowing that is not accepted here, lets just say whenever civilization began to emerge. I think it emerged BECAUSE god gave those humans consciousness. He did not give it fully to primordial humans.

The evidence fidel, is the obvious change in humanity, the curve it took. When primordial man basically died out after the ice age and the dawn of adam, its as if we took a dramatic left turn and exploded into a totally new direction; now we were thinking! And I think civilization is one of the evidence for consciousness, and again god.

But you then need to clearly define both where we, as a homonid species, began 'thinking' and subsequently where that 'thinking' culminated in the formation of civilisation.

You also need to define what you mean by 'civilisation'. Do you mean social, cohesive groups? Do you mean buildings? Do you mean cities?

The issue you have is that we have large reams of evidence to suggest that homo sapiens were not unique both in their ability to 'think' or their ability to form cohesive societal groups. Indeed, we don't even have to look into antiquity to garner evidence of this. Great apes today reveal to us their capability to 'think'; to assess an obstacle in front of them and reassess their behaviour and their actions to overcome or adapt.

And I think a further elucidation of 'consciousness' would be helpful here because, as above, if it is not defined coherently it's liable to fall apart at the slightest rebuttal.

I think reference to the ice age equating to the 'obvious turning point' may be a non sequitur. I can see evidence of adaption to a new environment, but I can't see evidence of it being a proverbial 'light bulb' moment where homo sapiens went from mindless, drooling savages (arguable on this point even but you get my point) to scholars, builders and artists.

I appreciate you're simply bounding your thoughts of us. However, if we are to have a debate on origin, saying 'I think' sort of debilitates your thesis if you then proceed to say 'This definitely happened'.

[Losty]

It's factual history

The evidence I like using is " Civilization", excuse me for using caps again, a habit. I think some 30-50,00 years ago, god created adam, the first human he gave consciousness. Knowing that is not accepted here, lets just say whenever civilization began to emerge. I think it emerged BECAUSE god gave those humans consciousness. He did not give it fully to primordial humans.

No, no it is not.

Also, 30 years ago, I wasn't born yet, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the dawn of civilization.

[mickiel]

This is a serious read, but I am reading it; Here's a little something for you to read;
http://www.leaderu.com/science/bishop.html

That entire article was, again, an argument from ignorance, or "god of the gaps". It was also a bit of a straw man. In his conclusion, he stated that quote: "we are the products of random chance".

Evolution, if you'd read a book or two on it you'd learn, is anything BUT random! Natural selection is the driving force - species better adapted to survive do (and reproduce more), and the less suitable individuals are discarded (and reproduce less).

The author is a doctor of exercise science, and so knows a lot about the human body, and is probably intelligent. But he, too, could stand to learn what evolution is and, maybe more importantly, what it isn't.

Is this thread going to turn into a debate on evolution now? We've got like a million lol.

Oh no, I believe in evolution and agree with it, just a bit differently. We can bypass evolution and get into atheism as a proof of God. I do not believe atheism would exist without god, I really don't. One poster here said it pre existed theism, and a mind devoid of awareness of god, is thus atheist. I agree with that, primordial man was atheist, and I cannot see then theism arising out of a world of atheism.

Why would it?
It had to be part of a plan of god to have theism and atheism.

[Esquilax]

There was, and is, no need for a tailor. Evolution by natural selection explains it.

What selected evolution and natural selection?

That question is literally nonsense. Evolution is simply a function of the fact that the genetic replication process that life goes through to reproduce is imperfect and leads to errors (mutations) that alter the form of the offspring; you keep mentioning how everything being designed so well is evidence for a god, would you then logically have to admit that such an imperfection in our reproductive process is evidence against one?

As to natural selection, that's just a consequence of the fact that once those offspring are born they have to exist in physical space, and that some will be better suited to that space due to their mutations, and some worse off.

Again, I ask: what is your level of education regarding evolution?

Oh no, I believe in evolution and agree with it, just a bit differently. We can bypass evolution and get into atheism as a proof of God. I do not believe atheism would exist without god, I really don't. One poster here said it pre existed theism, and a mind devoid of awareness of god, is thus atheist. I agree with that, primordial man was atheist, and I cannot see then theism arising out of a world of atheism.

Atheism doesn't entail perfect rationality. Theism arose when the first theist decided that arguments from ignorance about magic serve as better explanations than just waiting for evidence, and invented a special magic man to explain the things he didn't understand. Theism was born when an atheist decided to be wrong about something; that's not evidence for a god.