An unorthodox belief in God.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

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You have got to be fucking kidding. You are, right?

There are literally terabytes of information gleaned from genome mapping, methods of time-stamping, archeological digs, observation of short-term evolutionary response mechanisms, fossils [not quite included in terms of archeological digs; I mean this more specifically in terms of our own genetic ancestry], geological studies [Burgess Shale, anyone?], observations of cellular evolution, observations of the proof of abiogenesis...

That's not faith. That's called "accepting the facts of reality." That's called "faith has been buried under the Mt. Everest of evidence-mountains and it doesn't take 20/20 vision to see it."

You should try it! Might make the world seem a bit more interesting! Especially when you start realizing shit that will blow your mind...like how absolutely phenomenal the odds are that you, I, the world, the galaxy, everything in the universe would exist. You realize that the odds of you being alive, being who you are, where you are, what you are are? I don't think there's a name for the number for the odds. And yet, it's no grand master plan; had a single variable so much as twitched the other way, you might be someone else...or you might be not at all.

It's pure, random, chaotic chance. And when you actually genuinely see all the variables that went into, well, everything, and you then factor in all the scientific studies, theories, tests, observations, and conclusions that show what's happened, and where it began, and now are beginning to understand how and why it began...suddenly the pitiful ramblings of a bunch of unimaginative bronze-age cultists seems dull, dreary, uninspiring, and completely irrelevant.

Granted, this whole understanding also comes with the realization that none of the religions of man even touch the truth of the complexity of the universe and are insufficient to explain a god or any god, and that every single god of history has been buried under reality, and that the last one you believed in has been rendered false, too. And with that comes the realization that failing the simplest tests of evidence and observation has been a shared trait of all religions and all spiritual beliefs throughout human history. And with that tends to come the realization that after being so absolutely wrong so many times, you just have to accept that the hypothesis is simply invalid; there is no god. And death is pretty much the termination of your consciousness.

Does that instill a sense of terror and despair? Yup. It's traumatic. I can understand why there are so many who cannot face it; death is a terrifying thing, and the mere possibility that it really is the end is too terrifying for many to even begin to consider. Much easier to convince oneself "I'll go on perceiving forever!" No surprise there; perceiving and experiencing things is rather enjoyable. But if you believe it's never going to end, you take it for granted and you waste it.

But if you face it, realize it, come to terms with it, and make peace with it (and chances are rather high that you will as long as you take the first step), it stops being so scary. It does make you value your choices much more, and it does make you much more appreciative of the value of human life, though. It makes life a lot more vibrant and interesting when you realize you'd better start scrambling to experience what the world has to offer, because you've got a clock that's slowly ticking down to 0 and it's not going to stop ticking...unless science finds a way to make us never die of old age...which, well, once upon a time we once thought impossible but now there's studies underway that show it might not be quite as remote a possibility as we once thought. How ironic that it wouldn't be religion, but rather science that granted us immortality, huh?

It makes you value the lives of others more. It makes you realize that things function a lot better for everyone when we try to do good by others for no other reason than to share the wealth of experience. It makes you realize how important it is and how simply good it is to ensure the conception, vitalization, and prosperity of our children, the ones who come next, so that they might do the same, and so on, so that experience and perception can continue to be shared.

I have nothing to gain by what likely seems to be me trying to relieve you of your faith. You might think "Satan's temptations!" or something, depending on your level of fundamentalism, but you're just gonna take my words on faith here; I never felt any satanic or evil presence when I abandoned the indoctrinating influences of religion. I have never since had any urge to bring violent aggression against another human being. Looking back, actually, I'm a much more moral person than I was when I was following the bible's morality. I'm a lot more accepting, a lot less bigoted, a lot more understanding of people and events and experiences.

I am good without God. If ever I really must give a reason, it's quite simple, really; it's just a biological drive. We human beings are a very social, communal species. What's good for the group is good for the individual. Simple as that, really.

So, yes, there is a literally undeniable amount of evidence for evolution. And no, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for anything claimed in any of the religious texts throughout history.

Close one's eyes shut (ignorance) or open one's arms wide (gullibility), either way, one is a fool. But open one's eyes wide (understanding) and keep one's arms folded (skepticism), either way, one is wise.

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You got to be kidding; life and consciousness and this VAST universe is " pure, random , chaotic chance?" Man, what does atheism do to the human perception , its like it wipes out whole slabs of reality! It is denying our birth right and erasing our true heritage with god; Anyone can see this thing was intended and planned and designed.

goodness.

OK, suppose what you wrote is true. Then why does it appear that it has taken billions of years to arrive at our current state of existence. Why didn't the God character just zap everything into existence, like say 6,000 years ago?

[Cinjin]

Well thank you. May I make an observation I am curious about myself , about the atheist here that I view as a commonality; most of them curse like its a tradition to do here.

No, that would be utterly absurd. It's an international social forum. There are no traditions -- whatever the hell that means.

Their words slice you up like an expert butcher.

Slice you up like an expert butcher?!? What planet are you from? It's like you've never heard someone say fuck before.

Its as if cursing is a culture here , or a type of peer pressure; if you don't do it, why then you're not an atheist.
Reminds me of accepted arrogance, because its hard to curse without being arrogant about it.

I'm not an atheist, so you have no point here. I'm also not swearing. "Swearing" or "cursing" is what I do when I'm angry and out of control. With you I've merely used expletives that I deem appropriate and that you deem unacceptable. These expletives show the reader how ignorant I think your position is.

Also, you contradict yourself. On one hand, we're not smart enough to argue with the likes of your supremeness because we say a few words that you don't know how to use, but now you're saying that we're arrogant by adding an adjective like, fucking. For example, that entire statement you just made is fucking ignorant. Additionally, you're whining about swearing again, as if you get some kind of masturbatory pleasure from scolding others about stupid shit.

I also notice that a few have the manners to welcome guest, which is rewarding when you are a newcomer.

Had you come in here with a better attitude and not blathering on about things you know nothing about and scolding people, you would have been greeted by everyone in a pleasant manner. You made your own bed.

I also notice that some atheist like to threaten you, if they cannot get their way. Or change your way.

Please respond with a link to any personal threat you have received and this Staff WILL find a suitable discipline. I'll be waiting.

However, unlike you, I am not annoyed. Because I view these as really being human tendency, not atheist tendency.

Actually, you are the only one here who has implied that any tendency here is an atheist tendency. No one else has made that claim so you don't need to go around stating the obvious as if you're somehow "rising above it all." You sir, are the aggressor. Something we've come to expect from your kind.

[Confused Ape]

You're comparison is illusion , an attempt to deflect or disarm what I am doing. I am giving real biblical characters and events in our history, and the professional archaeology that confirms it. Greek gods and their mythical places are illusions, no professional has uncovered evidence of them.

The existence of Troy has already been pointed out to you. Mount Olympus really exists as well but nobody's ever found any Greek deities living on it.

Mount Olympus (/əˈlɪmpəs, oʊˈlɪm-/; Greek: Όλυμπος; also transliterated as Olympos, and on Greek maps, Oros Olympos) is the highest mountain in Greece and the second highest mountain in the Balkans

In judges 7:1 Gideon had a cave, we have that cave now; its no myth and no game; Its simply a real standard;

http://www.gemsinisrael.com/e_article000002707.htm

From the article -

From biblical times to more recent history this one spot has been a place where armies gathered prior to battle, where great battles were fought, and where an army in the making, trained.

The Spring of Harod flows from Gideon's Cave. This is the place where Gideon gathered his men before fighting the Midianites.

The Harod Spring also served as one the first training bases for the Palmach under Orde Charles Wingate, a British intelligence officer who was sympathetic to the plight of the Jews in Eretz Israel.

Gideon Historical-critical view

Historical-critical scholars consider the story of Gideon to be a composite narrative. Behind these various elements, and molded according to different view-points and intentions, lie popular traditions concerning historical facts and explanations of names once of an altogether different value, but now adapted to a later religious consciousness. The account of Gideon's war against Midian is a reflection of the struggle of his own clan or tribe with the hostile Bedouins across the Jordan for the possession of the territory, mixed with reminiscences of tribal jealousies on the part of Ephraim.[4]

Meaning of the name Gideon

Gideon or Gedeon (/ˈɡɪd.iː.ən/;[1] Hebrew: גִּדְעוֹן, Modern Gid'on Tiberian Giḏʻôn), which means "Destroyer," "Mighty warrior," or "Feller (of trees)" was, according to the Tanakh, a judge of the Hebrews

It's likely that Gideon did exist and gathered his army there before setting out on a successful campaign against the Midianites. If he did exist he probably believed that God had chosen him to lead the campaign. On the other hand -

As is the pattern throughout the book of Judges, the Israelites again turned away from God after 40 years of peace brought by Deborah's victory over Canaan and were allowed to be oppressed by the neighboring Midianites and Amalekites and the children of the east.

If the Israelites really were oppressed by their neighbours, Gideon could have invented the story about the miracles in order to inspire his people to go into battle.

Very unsure of both himself and God's command, he requested proof of God's will by three miracles: firstly a sign from an angel in Judges 6:16, and then two signs involving a fleece, performed on consecutive nights and the exact opposite of each other:

36 Then Gideon said to God, “If You will deliver Israel through me, as You have spoken, 37 behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. If there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all the ground, then I will know that You will deliver Israel through me, as You have spoken.” 38 And it was so. When he arose early the next morning and squeezed the fleece, he drained the dew from the fleece, a bowl full of water. 39 Then Gideon said to God, “Do not let Your anger burn against me that I may speak once more; please let me make a test once more with the fleece, let it now be dry only on the fleece, and let there be dew on all the ground.” 40 God did so that night; for it was dry only on the fleece, and dew was on all the ground.

—Judges 6:36–40

The Bible doesn't say that he had witnesses to these miracles. In later times it seems that the Israelites thought a name meaning 'lumberjack' wasn't really appropriate for a successful military leader so they added the 'mighty warrior' and 'destroyer' meanings.

The significance of these professional historical factual finds are that they give us more information about the people of those times, the places and buildings of the times , the laws of those times and the beliefs of those times.

And whether you like it or not, the gods worshipped during those times.

Exactly, which is why archaeology is so fascinating. What it can't do, though, is prove that the gods who were worshipped during those times really existed. This includes the God of the Israelites.

The Old Testament is a mixture of mythology, religious texts, folklore and history which was adapted to suit the purpose. Humans have a habit of attaching myths and folk tales to real people and here's an example from England.

The Legendary Francis Drake

It is not surprising that with such a legendary figure as Sir Francis Drake there are many folk stories told about him. Although he did not live on Dartmoor there are quite a few traditions associated with him and the moor. As he was such an heroic figure it is puzzling why some of the legends portray him as an evil person. It must be remembered that there has always been a deep belief in witchcraft on the moor and anybody who performed such feats as Drake could be regarded as possessing magical powers, in some cases these could have been believed to have come from the Devil.


It is also said on Dartmoor that the ghost of Sir Francis Drake rides the moors on dark nights at the head of a pack of 'Wisht Hounds' seeking out the souls of the unwary or un-baptised. Some people have sworn they have seen him and the Devil riding out with the dogs of hell around Wistman's Wood. Why he should be associated with these stories is a mystery and a very, very old mystery at that?

Francis Drake definitely existed and the legend of the Wild Hunt was attached to him. As I showed in an earlier post, the legend of the Wild Hunt can be traced back to Odin.

[Esquilax]

You got to be kidding; life and consciousness and this VAST universe is " pure, random , chaotic chance?" Man, what does atheism do to the human perception , its like it wipes out whole slabs of reality! It is denying our birth right and erasing our true heritage with god; Anyone can see this thing was intended and planned and designed.

goodness.

Why is it you think that your incredulity counts as an argument against a position?

Here's what I find interesting: the idea that consciousness evolved- again, not by chance as I told you in literally my first ever reply to you, and yet you're still using this strawman lie- without a designer completely blows your mind, and yet you believe in a god that is conscious and evidently much more complex than our own consciousnesses. So... where did that god's consciousness come from? Did it evolve? Did it just pop out of nothing? What?

See, this is the weakness of your position; your entire argument is "oh wow, you really believe consciousness just came about by chance?!" and yet the thing you believe in either just happened out of nothing- by chance- or always was, which is equally spontaneous. You keep telling us that consciousness has to have a designer while trying to sweep under the rug the fact that you already believe that consciousness can occur without a designer! Your underlying position invalidates the premises you're trying to impose on the rest of us, and I don't see how you can resolve this double standard without special pleading.

Now, you talked about swearing earlier, and asked if it was some atheist tradition. I can't be bothered to go back and find the quote but I will point out that I haven't once cursed in any of my posts to you beyond a mild "crap" in one, I believe. I did this in the hopes that it'd cause you to sit up and see that someone is attempting to enter into this conversation on somewhat even ground, and I've been disappointed by just how many of my posts you've ignored in order to chastise those that do swear. It seems like you're more interested in pointing out those that don't follow your conversational preferences than responding to those that do. On the off chance that this is just a coincidence, I think the point I made in the paragraph preceding this one is worth a response, don't you?

[Bad Wolf]

Mickiel, finding places mentioned in the bible, does not prove that the events actually happened.
Spiderman lives in NewYork. Hopefully you know that NewYork exists, by your logic, that means that spiderman and all his various adventures, really happened.

[Creed of Heresy]

Mickiel, finding places mentioned in the bible, does not prove that the events actually happened.
Spiderman lives in NewYork. Hopefully you know that NewYork exists, by your logic, that means that spiderman and all his various adventures, really happened.

Not to mention it is a very obvious attempt to grasp at straws.

When that sort of thing is the standard of evidence that comes from that argument, you can pretty much guarantee that the argument is not worth making.

[mickiel]

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You got to be kidding; life and consciousness and this VAST universe is " pure, random , chaotic chance?" Man, what does atheism do to the human perception , its like it wipes out whole slabs of reality! It is denying our birth right and erasing our true heritage with god; Anyone can see this thing was intended and planned and designed.

goodness.

OK, suppose what you wrote is true. Then why does it appear that it has taken billions of years to arrive at our current state of existence. Why didn't the God character just zap everything into existence, like say 6,000 years ago?

I don't know?

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Mickiel, finding places mentioned in the bible, does not prove that the events actually happened.
Spiderman lives in NewYork. Hopefully you know that NewYork exists, by your logic, that means that spiderman and all his various adventures, really happened.

They are " Leads to the truth", and you follow all leads because they lead to somewhere. If its a myth, there would be no credible historical archaeological leads. I have not mentioned an event that cannot be proven, I only list what has been verified.

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Mickiel, finding places mentioned in the bible, does not prove that the events actually happened.
Spiderman lives in NewYork. Hopefully you know that NewYork exists, by your logic, that means that spiderman and all his various adventures, really happened.

Not to mention it is a very obvious attempt to grasp at straws.

When that sort of thing is the standard of evidence that comes from that argument, you can pretty much guarantee that the argument is not worth making.

They are straws to you, verified historical leads to me. You can't pull straws out of verified history, and you're sarcasm cannot turn historical evidence into a straw.

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mickiel
Religious Views: Non religious, believes in God

I've got news for you pal. If you believe in God you are religious. That definition applies to all believers independently if they are part of a institutionalized theological system or not.

I disagree, I am not religious , I have absolutely nothing to do with religion. I follow politics at times, have some interest in it, but I am not political. I like women, but I am not a womanizer. I like veggies but I am not a vegetarian.

I got news for you; you cannot label or define me; I define myself.

[Confused Ape]

I disagree, I am not religious , I have absolutely nothing to do with religion.

I'm guessing this mean you don't belong to any organised religion. What's getting me confused is your saying you aren't a Christian but you keep using the Bible to justify your belief in God. What about other religions' concepts of God? Have you ever found anything besides the Bible which you regard as evidence for your belief?

[Cyberman]

Life is suited to the earth. You have the cart before the horse.

There is a spider on my wall. How fortunate that the wall is there, otherwise the poor animal would be sitting there in midair, hanging on nothing.

[Cyberman]

It had to be part of a plan of god to have theism and atheism.

For what purpose?