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Truth.. and what you know
#21
RE: Truth.. and what you know
(June 9, 2014 at 3:29 am)ska88 Wrote:
(June 8, 2014 at 6:08 pm)Losty Wrote: I think most truth is subjective. I can know thing to be true, but every time I learn something new my perception of truth is slightly altered. Maybe it doesn't mean my original idea of truth wasn't true, but more like my new idea of truth is even more true. And maybe my idea of truth is only true for me. In any case I think education is the most important thing (not necessarily formal education), the more you learn the closer you are to truth.

Great !

you mentioned many interesting ideas.

You actually become closer to the truth as long as you grow and learn and experience new things... and the truth you knew may not change but become more true.!

There has to be a measurement for how true this or that information is, or at least thats how we see it as human beings .. cuz we love to measure things .. we love counting .. we are more comfortable with things we can touch and see ..

I am strange I guess in that I do not care for numbers or measurements when it comes to things like truth. I do not always need to experience things with one of my five senses in order for me to know it to be true, but in many if not most circumstances I do prefer to be able to experience things rather than simply thinking about them or imagining them.

Quote:But what about imaginations and thoughts .. fictions.. dreams.. future tales!

Are they true? what makes fiction .. fiction! ?
Imaginations, thoughts, and dreams in my opinion are real, but they are only real to the person who experiences them. My thoughts cannot be real to anyone who cannot experience my mind in any way.
I don't think I understand the what makes fiction fiction question.
I only think of books when I think of fiction. So fiction is a made up story about something the author asserts did not actually happen. That's what makes it fiction.
As far as future tales, I don't actually know what that is. Like predictions?

Quote:I've always thought that their might be a possibility that we are living the dream and dreaming the real life! What makes dreams only happen in our minds? why are we so sure!!?
I think we can prove that dreams are different from reality with science. By observing people sleeping and studying their brain function. I can't really say for sure as I am not a scientist, a doctor, or an expert on sleep and/or dreaming.

Quote:why not assuming that we are actually transferring into another parallel world? at least partially ..
Why should we assume this? I mean, sure, it's a fun idea, but is there any evidence that leads you to believe this? I try not to make assumptions based simply on what I want to be true.

Quote:Why do some people believe on souls? and others don't!
The only answer I can give you is that it is because it is impossible to prove whether or not a souls exists. If it were possible either no one, or everyone would believe in the existence of souls.

Quote:Oh my God Big Grin this is driving me crazy.. and I like it.
I have days like this. I struggle a lot with insomnia, and when I start to get like this it is usually a sign that I really need to get some sleep.

Quote:About formal education.. I think it obstructs our minds from seeking the real truth.. since it provide information as a fact! while they should give us the possibility to find the truth some where else!
I think formal education is great. We all have our own minds, and we are perfectly capable of deciding whether or not to agree with an educator on whether something is debatable or concrete fact. In my opinion, formal education is important and continuing to learn beyond that from non-formal sources (like other people), and life experience is also quite important.

Quote:thanx a lot Smile
Blush all I did was respond. No need to thank me.

Quote:
(June 8, 2014 at 6:33 pm)Losty Wrote: Did I somehow miss that this was about Allah? Damn I have to start paying more attention.

Big Grin

I don't know why when I write anything it directly means that I'm talking about Islam and my belief and my God!!

Why can't we just discuss things without looking at the religion?!
Of course we can

Quote:I replied on you guys and I didn't even look at your profiles

that's segregation don't you think?Undecided

Well, I would say it is definitely not segregation, but it is sort of discrimination.
I have yet to decide whether or not it is warranted.
I tend to be the kind of person who gives people the benefit of doubt. At the same time I am very cautious of Muslims. This is not some annoying Merican oh muh god you're a terrorist thing. It is simply that I am cautious of people who have a book that is so horrifying to me and they call it a religion of peace. Which, to me, is dishonest.

But I will continue to have mature interactions with you, as long as you do not prove to be a troll.
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay

0/10

Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
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#22
RE: Truth.. and what you know
I realize now that I read "properly basic" as English words, and not as a philosophical term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_belief makes me immediately congratulate myself for correctly identifying the process by which assumptions are transformed in the mind into facts upon which world views (and reflection back to those original assumptions) can be formed. Specifically, "In reformed epistemology, beliefs are held to be properly basic if they are reasonable and consistent with a sensible world view." I think whoever believes this is actively redefining both the words basic and proper.
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#23
RE: Truth.. and what you know
Perhaps math is truth. Maybe the only absolute truth.

2+2 = 4.
Before the Big Bang, 2+2 = 4.
After the heat-death of the universe, 2+2 = 4.

That number-sentence is absolutely, always, and forever true.
I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
I'm a goddess, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
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#24
RE: Truth.. and what you know
(June 9, 2014 at 5:07 am)bennyboy Wrote: Why call "basic" those philosophical positions on which all other ideas rest, and from which many of our other beliefs unfold?

Because that's what a properly basic belief IS. That's like asking why one would call a congruent quadrilateral polygon a square.

Quote:Here you are doing exactly what I said people should not do. You've called and important philosophical belief, like that about the nature of sensation, "basic," and then unfolded a system of ideas that not only depend on, but follow from, that assumption.

That is not what I did. Read my post again. I said things like "Reasoming's validity, generally the reliability of our senses, and the existence of other minds" are properly basic beliefs, not the nature of sensation.

Quote:You keep saying this about idealism, but you need to explain why you say this. Believing that all experiences are intrinsically mental has nothing to do with whether there are other minds, also experiencing, or with whether or not they are related to each other in a larger framework.

This is a little more complex, so I'll get into it later after the properly basic stuff.

Quote:There are no basic assumptions, except for those you want taken as true without having to provide evidence for them. When one of those assumptions is in fact about the NATURE of evidence, that is most certainly a circle.

No, there are things that cannot even be proven to be true, BECAUSE they are the assumptions we make in all cases. The one thing presuppositionalists get right is that you cannot justify your reasoning by using your reasoning, as it's circular. What they fail to realize us why this isn't a problem.

(June 9, 2014 at 5:26 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Because the entire "properly basic" foundational system is a bullshit charade to backdoor complex irrational beliefs such as "God" in as fundamental, when they aren't.

No it isn't. People like Plantinga can claim belief in God is properly basic, but they are demonstrably bullshitting, as that belief rests on other basic beliefs.

(June 9, 2014 at 7:24 am)bennyboy Wrote: I realize now that I read "properly basic" as English words, and not as a philosophical term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_belief makes me immediately congratulate myself for correctly identifying the process by which assumptions are transformed in the mind into facts upon which world views (and reflection back to those original assumptions) can be formed. Specifically, "In reformed epistemology, beliefs are held to be properly basic if they are reasonable and consistent with a sensible world view." I think whoever believes this is actively redefining both the words basic and proper.

You do realize that Reformed Epistemology is not synonymous with the view that there are properly basic beliefs, right? REs simply include belief in God as a properly basic belief, and claim that only the Christian worldview is consistent and reasonable (they are a form of Presuppositionalism after all).
"The reason things will never get better is because people keep electing these rich cocksuckers who don't give a shit about you."
-George Carlin
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#25
RE: Truth.. and what you know
(June 8, 2014 at 3:15 am)ska88 Wrote: Its like you are implying for something specific.

You do what you do, and they do what they do, and if you do as they tell you not to: they will try and stop you.

But what can they do? They're dead too. Devil

Quote:You know what.. I even can't say if someone is sane or crazy?!

Does thinking differently makes someone crazy?! And thinking like me makes someone sane .. like me?! Smile

I can.

No. No.

Quote:Thanks for sharing your thoughts Big Grin

You haven't yet heard my thoughts. You should hope that you never do.

(June 8, 2014 at 2:52 am)bennyboy Wrote: You can have truth, but you can only know whether your ideas are true in a given context.

You can have truth for everything and anything, irrespective of context. But... do you believe the truth? Can you... accept it?

Quote:In the context of eating an apple, it is true that I am enjoying it. Whether the apple and I "really" exist, or whether I'm just an illusion, or a figment of the Mind of God, or a character in the Matrix, is not knowable. That transcendent context is not accessible to us. But eating an apple will always just be eating an apple. And that's truth.

In logic... your existence is certain, as the existence of all things is certain. You exist as all things, for all things exist as you do.

Without logic, or with a different logic... you are the transient non-nothing that is something without meaning and YOU ARE *NOT*.

But don't worry... logic is right. Right? Angel

Quote:The problem comes when people have ideas that they think represent a truth of a level that is inaccessible to humans-- for example, if they claim to know why the universe exists rather than not existing. That is delusion, and possibly pride as well.

Perhaps they do. The delusional often know many things.

(June 8, 2014 at 5:57 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote:
(June 8, 2014 at 2:19 am)Alice Wrote: Nothing is true... everything is permitted.

Is it true that "Nothing is true."? If so, then the statement is false. If not, then it's meaningless.

This is we shouldn't go post-modernist! xD

Whether you attach meaning to it or not is... irrelevant. The truth is unconcerned with you, as the truth is not. Nothing is pure... everything conflicts.

I've gone postal; what age need I be... to be?

(June 8, 2014 at 6:08 pm)Losty Wrote: I think most truth is subjective. I can know thing to be true, but every time I learn something new my perception of truth is slightly altered. Maybe it doesn't mean my original idea of truth wasn't true, but more like my new idea of truth is even more true. And maybe my idea of truth is only true for me. In any case I think education is the most important thing (not necessarily formal education), the more you learn the closer you are to truth.

ROFLOL ROFLOL ROFLOL

'The more you learn... the closer you are... to truth'? ROFLOL

Aha... hahahahaha XD Hahahaa... ha.. heheaha XD ^___^ XD

Woooowwww Big Grin

(June 9, 2014 at 8:56 am)ThePinsir Wrote: Perhaps math is truth. Maybe the only absolute truth.

2+2 = 4.
Before the Big Bang, 2+2 = 4.
After the heat-death of the universe, 2+2 = 4.

That number-sentence is absolutely, always, and forever true.

Math is founded on logic. All the elements of mathematics must be as they are, not be as they're not, and conform to only their 'ares' or 'are nots'.

You wouldn't know what to do if you held the true.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#26
RE: Truth.. and what you know
(June 9, 2014 at 9:26 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: Because that's what a properly basic belief IS. That's like asking why one would call a congruent quadrilateral polygon a square.
I've already said in a subsequent post that I was taking the words "properly basic" other than how you meant them. Smile

Quote:That is not what I did. Read my post again. I said things like "Reasoming's validity, generally the reliability of our senses, and the existence of other minds" are properly basic beliefs, not the nature of sensation.
I'd accept the validity of reasoning as properly basic. "Sense" reliability subtly implies an underlying world view-- that there is a mind, and an object which it senses; this may be true, but the reliability of the senses is therefore not basic. The existence of other minds I'm not too sure about-- in general, I'd say a belief in the existence of something you don't have direct access to is NOT properly basic, because you must first believe in a framework in which things may be said to exist. Where do other minds exist? In space? Time? The Mind of God?

Keep in mind that the use of the term "properly basic belief" is new to me, but based on what I can grok so far, I think many ideas are taken as properly basic which really aren't.
Quote:You do realize that Reformed Epistemology is not synonymous with the view that there are properly basic beliefs, right? REs simply include belief in God as a properly basic belief, and claim that only the Christian worldview is consistent and reasonable (they are a form of Presuppositionalism after all).
Not only do I not realize it, I don't even know what you are talking about, or why. Has something about my position/s made you think that I have any association with a Christian worldview?
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#27
RE: Truth.. and what you know
(June 9, 2014 at 3:04 pm)Alice Wrote:


Thanks.
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay

0/10

Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
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#28
RE: Truth.. and what you know
(June 8, 2014 at 6:51 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(June 8, 2014 at 6:33 pm)Losty Wrote: Did I somehow miss that this was about Allah? Damn I have to start paying more attention.

Didn't have to mention Allah, but when you play chess for 13 years you know the bait used to draw you in. This is to prevent him from making it evidence of his particular god. Preventative strike consider it.

I've seen this "how do you know" and "what is truth" woo from all sorts of religious people over the past 13 years.

I find it absurd for someone to come onto an atheist website anywhere and put their position next to where it says "belief" then avoid talking about it when it is glaringly obvious by that alone they think they are right. I don't post the word "atheist" because I think I am wrong and I am not afraid at all to defend my position.

Many of the theists who debate us at least try to argue their position. If all he wants to be is a spectator then he should not have started this thread.

let's assume that you are right. What makes you so afraid from .. me sharing my belief and trying to convince you to convert Big Grin ??

I mean if what all I say is non sense then why preventing me from being stupid and let me fail in front of all atheists in the forum?

I don't who who is trying to force who to change his belief me or you!

when I face the sentence.. "there is no God" .. I DO NVEVER judge this person's intellegence and I actually start having the curiousity to know why he thinks that.. and start asking questions to understand his views and positions.. tell me now who his trying to force people into his belief?

You are trying to shut me down.. just because I'm muslim!

That's the path I chose Islam.. and I think with "all what I know and try to learn" that this is the truth.. from my own perspective.. and that's my choice. Do I have to be atheist to be more truthful ?! what If God do exist.. wouldn't that make me so far from the truth..!!

what makes you right.. and me wrong?!

I believe we are responsible to choose our paths in this life .. and I chose mine.. and I'm still opening my mind to new ideas and views .. and I will still do until I die.
cuz my mind is free..

I write posts everywhere and I'm interested in forums where people discuss their beliefs without bias.. and truthfully.. Does that make me a criminal?!

You should start thinking outside the box.. and be tolerant to hear from others.. I can see how afraid you are to discuss something against your belief.

welcome.
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#29
Truth.. and what you know
(June 9, 2014 at 7:24 am)bennyboy Wrote: I realize now that I read "properly basic" as English words, and not as a philosophical term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_belief makes me immediately congratulate myself for correctly identifying the process by which assumptions are transformed in the mind into facts upon which world views (and reflection back to those original assumptions) can be formed. Specifically, "In reformed epistemology, beliefs are held to be properly basic if they are reasonable and consistent with a sensible world view." I think whoever believes this is actively redefining both the words basic and proper.

The only reason "properly basic" exists as a category is to backdoor in beliefs like God as self-evident.

Self-evidence is simple question-begging.
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#30
RE: Truth.. and what you know
(June 8, 2014 at 8:43 pm)Dragonetti Wrote: You stated you are from Qatar? Are you still living there? Because this website is blocked by their filters.

I'm living in the heart of Qatar Big Grin

There is nothing like that.. that's all no more than lies!

I can easily talk to you guys ..

no one is blocking me or anything..

Qatar is a beautiful civilized country .. where people are living just zoo fine and justice is taking it's place ..

we are rich people who make other people also rich.. and enjoying our royal lives in our beautiful country!

we have rights for women that US itself doesn't have.. the government provides houses and jobs and even salaries without jobs for any woman who is in need!

The government treats us for free IN great hospitals.. we have great colleges .. great education..

I'm an engineer who is happily married and the government gave us a bing land with 2 millions to build our house.. and my husband's salary is 35 thousand .. he doesn't even finished college.. he is a regular employee.

and I'm not working cuz I'm pregnant and I'm enjoying my pregnancy and I want to stay home with my little future baby.. I don't have to work cuz I'm already rich.. I have 2 maids and a driver..my car is lexus .. and I can drive if I want but I have a private driver so why driving? Cool Shades

So we are people who are super super rich and our government care about us too much .. and give us as women all our rights..

You talk about the right to wear what ever you like!! and I talk about the right to have a house.. money and job .. the right to be safe and protected!

I love my country Big Grin

Being arabs doesn't make us terrorists and uncivilized .. !! That's all hollywood lies.

welcome.

(June 8, 2014 at 9:13 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: In short, knowledge for me is a mixture of what seems reasonable combined with how much evidence is at hand. A reasonable hypothesis without evidence is not knowledge, but not excluded from possibility; and something as nutty as QM must be accepted if the evidence says so.

You know I hate physics just because they are soo confident and happy with their theories and hypothesis Big Grin

what if they are wrong!!

I still remember when my physics teacher said .. the electricity has a negative charge but because before they thought it was positive.. we are going to solve our equations using the old theory Angry

that really made me soooo angry !!
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