Believers!! Don't mislead people

[Ksa]

Sure, you can start by proving why Boko Haram does NOT follow the Qur'an.

ISSUE: Whether Boko Haram does NOT follow the Qur'an.

Thank you . . . and that's quite simple. There are no verses in the Quran that Allah commands for kidnapping innocent people, or else.

Prove to me if there is one in the Quran.

It is mentioned in Surat An-Nisā' 4:3:

"And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice]."

These are slave girls, obtained doing Jihad. Since they do not have the same rights as Muslim wives, as it is mentioned in Surat An-Nisā' 4:24:

"And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess."

So kidnapping unbeliever slave girls, giving them faith and a Muslim husband is doing them a favor Inch'Allah! If they obey Allah and the Qur'an they will be granted Janna. You're telling me that the Qur'an is against doing them such a favor? HUGE favor.

[Brian37]

Any culture or religion that cannot or wont allow girls/women to make their own life choices deserves nothing but scorn and contempt. Islam does not hold a monopoly on sexism, but it sure as hell doesn't do enough to stop it.

ISSUE: Whether Islam don't allow girls/women to make their own life choices?

Can you please prove to me with verses from the Quran ?

Sure, but you will do what Christians do too, when I succeed in pointing out the sexism in the Koran you will cherry pick it like Christians cherry pick the bible. Give me a few minutes while I look a verse up on line and get back to you. Your god is also the god of Abraham and your book is as sexist as the bible.

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http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

There is a slew of verses in that vile comic book that treat women as filthy and blame women for what men do and treat them like SHIT, just like the bible does.

The reason sexism exists in both those books is because sexism was a social norm back then.

[Losty]

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ISSUE: Whether Islam don't allow girls/women to make their own life choices?

Can you please prove to me with verses from the Quran ?

Sure, but you will do what Christians do too, when I succeed in pointing out the sexism in the Koran you will cherry pick it like Christians cherry pick the bible. Give me a few minutes while I look a verse up on line and get back to you.

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Your god is also the god of Abraham and your book is as sexist as the bible.

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http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

There is a slew of verses in that vile comic book that treat women as filthy and blame women for what men do and treat them like SHIT, just like the bible does.

The reason sexism exists in both those books is because sexism was a social norm back then.

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I don't think the muslimatheist believes in god. I could be wrong.

[Brian37]

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Sure, but you will do what Christians do too, when I succeed in pointing out the sexism in the Koran you will cherry pick it like Christians cherry pick the bible. Give me a few minutes while I look a verse up on line and get back to you.

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Your god is also the god of Abraham and your book is as sexist as the bible.

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http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

There is a slew of verses in that vile comic book that treat women as filthy and blame women for what men do and treat them like SHIT, just like the bible does.

The reason sexism exists in both those books is because sexism was a social norm back then.

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I don't think the muslimatheist believes in god. I could be wrong.

That is the mistake he makes, Christians make, and you are making now. It isn't about what the individual believes. This dodging ignores that the words are still there for others to justify anything they want.

Find me 1,000,000 Christians and have them read the same verse and you will find 1,000,000 different excuses to buy it or ignore it. Find me 1,000,000 Jews and read a verse from their holy books, and again, you will find 1,000,000 different excuses to use it or ignore it. Find me 1,000,000 people who follow Islam, read the same Koran vs, and you will find 1,000,000 excuses to follow it or ignore it.

None of that changes the fact that the words were written in the first place.

Religion is poison for this very reason, for any good the believer thinks it might do, it causes far more harm and division and tribalism than any good they might do.

I do not find any "idea" good that starts with an immovable figure(god) that will only give humans peace if they only obey him like a slave obeys a master.

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If he does not believe in a god, then I see no point in calling himself a Muslim. That is merely an attempt at that point to justify geographical tribalism.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

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[quote='Losty' pid='690243' dateline='1403016294']
Countries that do not allow the death penalty
[hide]
ALBANIA
ANDORRA
ANGOLA
ARGENTINA
ARMENIA
AUSTRALIA
AUSTRIA
AZERBAIJAN
BELGIUM
BHUTAN
BOLIVIA
BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA
BULGARIA
BURUNDI
CAMBODIA
CANADA
CAPE VERDE
COLOMBIA
COOK ISLANDS
COSTA RICA
COTE D'IVOIRE
CROATIA
CYPRUS
CZECH REPUBLIC
DENMARK
DJIBOUTI
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
ECUADOR
ESTONIA
FINLAND
FRANCE
GABON
GEORGIA
GERMANY
GREECE
GUINEA-BISSAU
HAITI
HOLY SEE
HONDURAS
HUNGARY
ICELAND
IRELAND
ITALY
KIRIBATI
KYRGYSTAN
LATVIA
LIECHTENSTEIN
LITHUANIA
LUXEMBOURG
MACEDONIA (former Yugoslav Republic)
MALTA
MARSHALL ISLANDS
MAURITIUS
MEXICO
MICRONESIA (Federated States)
MOLDOVA
MONACO
MONTENEGRO
MOZAMBIQUE
NAMIBIA
NEPAL
NETHERLANDS
NEW ZEALAND
NICARAGUA
NIUE
NORWAY
PALAU
PANAMA
PARAGUAY
PHILIPPINES
POLAND
PORTUGAL
ROMANIA
RWANDA
SAMOA
SAN MARINO
SAO TOME AND PRINCIPE
SENEGAL
SERBIA
SEYCHELLES
SLOVAKIA
SLOVENIA
SOLOMON ISLANDS
SOUTH AFRICA
SPAIN
SWEDEN
SWITZERLAND
TIMOR-LESTE
TOGO
TURKEY
TURKMENISTAN
TUVALU
UKRAINE
UNITED KINGDOM
URUGUAY
UZBEKISTAN
VANUATU
VENEZUELA
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/abolitio...-countries

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In the US it's only a matter of time. It's been outlawed already in 18 states. Hopefully it will be completely outlawed here soon too.

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[Brian37]

If people who call themselves "Muslim" don't want their religion banned in the west, then the best thing they can do is stop trying to incorporate religion into government. I hate it just as much when Christians here try to claim "Christian nation". Despite "no religious test" in our oath of office, and "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

I think you misunderstand why they react to Muslims like that. If you want to act like a fascist theocracy you should not be surprised when where you move to where pluralism is protected that some might get pissed that you are trying to turn common law into religious law.

I don't like it when Christians try to rip our laws out of their holy book and I would not like it if Muslims did it either.

[Muslim Atheism]

ISSUE: Whether Boko Haram does NOT follow the Qur'an.

Where does the verses mention Allah commands Muslims to kidnap people?


. . .

It is mentioned in Surat An-Nisā' 4:3:

"And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice]."

These are slave girls, obtained doing Jihad. Since they do not have the same rights as Muslim wives, as it is mentioned in Surat An-Nisā' 4:24:

Verse 4.24 is not about "kidnapping", it is about an orphan girl and polygamy, and it is the exception to the general rule of "one wife" in verse 33.50 (refer here). In fact, it is the reinstatement of the general rule of only "one wife" in Islam (red above).


O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the believers. (33.50)

Therefore:

General rule: One wife (33.50), polygamy is unjust.

And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]. (4:129)

Exception: For the benefit of orphan girls, and if they have no fear of being unjust to their wives (4:24).

Condition: Cannot marry more than one if they fear of injustice to wives, even if it is for the benefit of the orphan girls (4:24) and (4:129).

And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]. (4:129)

Therefore, one injustice is allowed if one can balance for three justices, provided there is "no fear" of being injustice to wives and it is for the benefit of an orphan girls.


. . .

"And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess."

So kidnapping unbeliever slave girls, giving them faith and a Muslim husband is doing them a favor Inch'Allah! If they obey Allah and the Qur'an they will be granted Janna. You're telling me that the Qur'an is against doing them such a favor? HUGE favor.

The slave girl is not about the kidnapping, and marrying slave girl is prohibited unless upon compliance the conditions in verse 4:25-26 (refer here).

And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women
then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls
4.25

General rule: It is prohibited to marry a believing slave girl (33.50)

. . . [this is] only for you, excluding the believers. (33.50)

Exception: It is allowed upon compliance all the conditions in verse 4:25-26 (refer here).

Conditions: Must fulfil all the conditions, otherwise cannot marry slave girl.

1. This exception is for those who cannot find the means to marry free, believing women
2. This exception is for those who fears of committing sin (but to be patient is better for them)
3. One must marry that girl
4. One must get the permission from their people
5. One must give them their due compensation
6. One must compensate them according to what is acceptable by them
7. They should be chaste
8. They should not of those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly
9. They should not of those who take secret lovers
10. She must be from his right hands possess

Why there are these rules? The rule relating to slavery is needed since there might be a situation of war in the future and many are becoming slaves and there are no free women (AND can even marry more than one wife in order to help the orphans during situation of war etc). Therefore and if there is no free women to marry, ONLY THEN one can marry a believing slave girl, PROVIDED fulfill all the conditions in (4:25-26) etc. This rule is reasonable since one must be allowed to marry believing slave girl if there is no free women he can take as a wife, ie. no other options.


. . .

So where do Allah commands Muslims to kidnap innocent people ?

What verses from the Quran ?

ISSUE: Whether Boko Haram does NOT follow the Qur'an.

Thank you . . . and that's quite simple. There are no verses in the Quran that Allah commands for kidnapping innocent people, or else.

Prove to me if there is one in the Quran.

[Losty]

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I don't think the muslimatheist believes in god. I could be wrong.

That is the mistake he makes, Christians make, and you are making now. It isn't about what the individual believes. This dodging ignores that the words are still there for others to justify anything they want.

Find me 1,000,000 Christians and have them read the same verse and you will find 1,000,000 different excuses to buy it or ignore it. Find me 1,000,000 Jews and read a verse from their holy books, and again, you will find 1,000,000 different excuses to use it or ignore it. Find me 1,000,000 people who follow Islam, read the same Koran vs, and you will find 1,000,000 excuses to follow it or ignore it.

None of that changes the fact that the words were written in the first place.

Religion is poison for this very reason, for any good the believer thinks it might do, it causes far more harm and division and tribalism than any good they might do.

I do not find any "idea" good that starts with an immovable figure(god) that will only give humans peace if they only obey him like a slave obeys a master.

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If he does not believe in a god, then I see no point in calling himself a Muslim. That is merely an attempt at that point to justify geographical tribalism.

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I was just saying because you said "your god"
I will agree that with or without whatever god, all three (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) are all poison. They're all used to justify atrocities committed by bad people.

[Brian37]

Well it is true that someone can like a tradition, a book, or parts of it and not believe all of it. I really still don't care how much someone tries to avoid the nasty parts of a book and cling to it's pretty stories, it does not change that the nasty parts still exist.

Jefferson like Jesus like he liked Plato and Socrates but believed he was just a man. That still does not change that other people who read the same book with the same words come to different conclusions about the nature of reality. Watering a book down only gives you excuses to cling to it.

I can also find good motifs in Star Wars and Harry Potter, but that does not make the fantastic claims in them true, nor are they viewed as religions.

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Here is the problem with all religions.

The Sunni claims the Shiite got it wrong. The Shiite claims the Sunni got it wrong. Both claim that Christians got it wrong. Baptists think Catholics got it wrong. Both Catholics and Baptists think Mormons got it wrong. Jews also have liberal secularists and Orthodox fundamentalists who don't get along. Even China has both Buddhists and Muslims who don't get along with Tibet's Buddhists.

See a pattern developing here?

Religion in all it's labels in all of human history has done nothing but make excuses to create clubs to ignore that we are the same species.

Me, I am simply fucking sick of this crap.

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I'd appreciate all you idiots not using the only planet I live on as your personal pissing contest.

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I don't care if you are Christian, Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Amish, whatever. Fuck you if you think your daughter or wife is there simply to be dictated to. That is a human being, not your slave or property.

Okay. so you cannot prove with direct evidence from the Quran and relying on dogmatism. End.

Several of us here gave you verses and I gave you a direct link to several verses that prove you wrong.

If you call yourself an atheistI will take your word for it, but you are just as fucking blind and stupid as someone who claims to be a Muslim and does literally believe in a sky hero. An atheist justifying sexism just to placate the insecurities of sexist men is as bad as the believers who justify sexism.

There is absolutely no way you can gloss over the written sexism in any of those books because back then sexism was the social norm.

Now which do you care more about? The rights of women, or a mere object? If defending the Koran, atheist or not, is more important than human rights to you, then you are a sad human being.

Now I would highly recommend you read "Infidel" by Ayaan Hersi Ali. I would doubt her being a former Muslim that you would be able to get her to say Islam has nothing to do with dogmatism.

And again, do not stupidly accuse me of singling Islam or Muslims out. Religion promotes all sorts of stupid absurdities, Islam does not own a patent on it.

[Muslim Atheism]

I don't think the muslimatheist believes in god. I could be wrong.

I believe, I am God, You are God, and everyone and everything is God. . . It is our "desire" that is God and it is either we prostrate and benefiting humanity etc, or we create destruction . . we are the successive authority on Earth . The powers is in our hands, our choice.