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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 26, 2014 at 4:29 pm
Has anyone considered that "faith" works.... for those who have it?
Can daily coincidence be normal? Or is it something else?
I have a very dear friend that "was" a powerful believer in Christ, leave the faith.
We went back and forth, over the net (he is in the Philipines) arguing about why he left.
He gave me all the reasons, as you here do, that the bible was made up, and changed over time. And the persona of Jesus was a "world narrative" that people would accept.
But over the course of our correspondence, it came down to his loss of faith. Not his new found information. We both agreed that "men lie", and no real truth can be found except that is found by us personally.
So, its whether our faith is in man, or God that is the real issue at hand.
I personally have had better luck with God.
We ended our argument parting as "spiritual" friends which sadden me very much. But again, we did agree in the end that "any" information provided by men is suspect... his or mine.
But, if Jesus' words are correct, "the Kingdom is found within"..... what is needed to find it? FAITH. And "IF" indeed it does work for those who have it....
.....who are you to say it doesn't? YMMV
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 26, 2014 at 4:54 pm
Who am I to say it doesn't?
Tell me something right now that you have discovered through faith. And I don't mean: 'I've discovered jesus holy grace, praise The Lord!' No, none of that. Tell me one single discovery made by 'faith'.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 26, 2014 at 7:24 pm
(June 26, 2014 at 4:29 pm)ronedee Wrote: I have a very dear friend that "was" a powerful believer in Christ, leave the faith.
We went back and forth, over the net (he is in the Philipines) arguing about why he left.
We ended our argument parting as "spiritual" friends which sadden me very much. So you allowed your religion to destroy your friendship?
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
- Esquilax
Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 26, 2014 at 7:39 pm
(June 24, 2014 at 2:10 am)BlackMason Wrote: You've heard people say it before, "I have faith" or so and so has a lot of faith. What does that mean really? What is having a lot of faith?
It would seem that having a lot of faith is the act of tenatiously rejecting reality. You walk out your house without an umbrella even though you've got big gray clouds in the sky. Is this faith?
If I keep telling myself that something unlikely to happen will, does that constitute faith?
When does faith become stupid? When do adults take responsibility for their own lives? Does someone who believes they can walk on water have more faith than somone who believes they will pass a test?
I remember being in a restuarant and a man came in and said he was a man of faith. He had an incredible sense of superiority. It's sad that a bold statement like that can be said with such gusto in 2014.
I think faith is directly proportional to irrationality.
I do not necessarily accept your rather narrow definition of faith.
On a topical note, a Brazilian having faith his national team will win the world cup is not irrational, while its not a guarantee the odds are pretty good.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 26, 2014 at 7:52 pm
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2014 at 7:57 pm by Simon Moon.)
(June 26, 2014 at 4:29 pm)ronedee Wrote: Has anyone considered that "faith" works.... for those who have it?
Work in what way?
If by 'work' you mean that it makes them feel good, protected, loved, etc, then sure, it 'works'. If you mean 'works' for them by giving them an internal model that more accurately maps to the external world, then no, it does not work.
If your claiming that their faith does give them a more accurate model of the external world, then you know what you have to do? Provide demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument to prove it.
Quote:Can daily coincidence be normal? Or is it something else?
People are notoriously bad at this kind of thing. When it comes to their beliefs, they count the hits and ignore the misses. Not to mention the well known inaccuracies of personal experience, memories, eyewitness accounts, etc.
Quote:But over the course of our correspondence, it came down to his loss of faith. Not his new found information. We both agreed that "men lie", and no real truth can be found except that is found by us personally.
You are welcome to your own beliefs, but not your own truth.
Billions of people claim to have the truth (different than yours) with just as much faith, confidence, sincerity as you do, yet according to you, they are incorrect.
Quote:So, its whether our faith is in man, or God that is the real issue at hand.
I do not, and know quite a few people, that do not have any faith in the way you mean it.
If anyone is able to point out that I believe anything on faith, you know what I'll do? I'll stop believing it.
Quote:But, if Jesus' words are correct, "the Kingdom is found within"..... what is needed to find it? FAITH. And "IF" indeed it does work for those who have it....
.....who are you to say it doesn't? YMMV
As Matt Dillahunty says, 'Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence".
Faith is not a path to truth.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 26, 2014 at 8:04 pm
Reminds me of an old children's rhyme.
Quote:Faith is a virtue.
A virtue is a grace.
Grace is a little girl
Who doesn't wash her face.
There's nothing virtuous about faith in god.
I say I have faith in my husband. Past experience has lead me to believe he's a good solid loving guy. My faith is just inductive reasoning based on his past actions. But is would be very odd if I had never met him and had to have faith in his existence.
The problem with faith in god is there are are no past actions or experiences to support that faith. It's not faith based on the past, it's faith based on thin air.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 26, 2014 at 8:08 pm
(June 26, 2014 at 4:29 pm)ronedee Wrote: Has anyone considered that "faith" works.... for those who have it? As a motivating force, it can work, yes. Many successful people use similar techniques to motivate themselves. If you convince yourself that you can achieve something, you're more likely to give it your full effort and thus more likely to achieve it. Prayer is a form of affirmation, in that the rote repetition of thematic messages can subconsciously move a person to act.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 26, 2014 at 11:00 pm
(June 26, 2014 at 4:29 pm)ronedee Wrote: I personally have had better luck with God.
That's because the system is set up so gawd can't fail. If you pray about something and get a "yes" answer, gawd is glorious. If you pray and get a "no" answer, it's gawd's will. If you pray and get no answer, it's just gawd working in mysterious ways.
When you pray about something and get a "yes" answer, then later find that as a result of that "yes" answer, someone else suffered, do you feel guilty about it? Or is it just more of gawd's mysterious work?
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 27, 2014 at 2:39 am
(This post was last modified: June 27, 2014 at 2:54 am by fr0d0.)
(June 26, 2014 at 8:04 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The problem with faith in god is there are are no past actions or experiences to support that faith. It's not faith based on the past, it's faith based on thin air.
For me with a quarter of a century of faith in the bag it's not something based on past failure. Faith it's a virtue to those that adopt it. If you're without faith presumably that's for a reason, and you're not going to see the benefits.
You have faith in your husband and that's strengthened with time. It's an intellectual assent leading to trust, just like religious faith.
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RE: Faith is a measure of irrationality
June 27, 2014 at 2:51 am
I am without faith for a reason. A very scientific reason.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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