I love religion!

[Zagreus]

Hello Zag,

While I applaud your decision on taking a more "fair" approach towards your stance on religion, I believe most of us, if not all here, have seen way too much violence involving religion to be bothered to give it's possible "good" a second thought.

It's human nature to be violent, it's not a part of religion. People may use religion to justify their actions, but the heart of most (all?) religions that I'm aware of is peace. War is largely about personal greed and politics. The good religion can do can be weighed up too. Yes, war may kill millions of people, but religious people such as Sri Ramakrishna are the cause of foundations that help millions of people. Gandhi could be another example. Remove religion you remove most of our species' history, be it culture, art, thought, etc.

I'm not saying the non-religious have never contributed to violence, but religion further divides a race already divided by so many other factors that its doing much more damage then good, in my opinion.

No, it's people's mentality that divides our species. The idea that I'm right, and you're wrong. Some religious people can be guilty of this, but so are some atheists. A Rabbi a few years ago said to me when I asked him about his views on the other Abhamaic faiths: "I think that if you are a Jew, you should be the best Jew that you can, if you are a Christian you should be the best Christian you can, and if you are a Muslim you should be the best Muslim that you can. We are all worshipping the same G-d after all" (or something like that).

If everyone thought like that, regardless of their faith or lack of it, humanity would get on better. It's the delusion that one idea is right above others is the problem, in my opinion. It's also the necessity to force this belief on others. Dawkins is as guilty of this as any religious person. (Are you getting it yet that I'm not that keen on Dawkins? Sorry, I'll stop mentioning him...)

---

Well, Religion makes me laugh.....

If nothing else.

Yes... nonesense can have that effect The rest of the time it just confuses me

No offence, but these are the types of comment I’m complaining about. Yes, silly people believing in religion. What idiots Socrates, Plato, Isaac Newton, William Blake, Martin Luther King, for example, were.

But Zagreus,

Most fundementalists Christians DO believe in an adult version

of Father Christmas living up in the sky.

They even take the Creation myth seriously.

If you want proof go to answersingenesis.com(which I am ashamed to say was

started by an Australian) where they perform the most amazing mental gymnastics

in order to "prove" Creation true.

I know. I’ve already said I don’t agree AT ALL (emphasis, not shouting) with literalist religious views. Not all religious people think like that though; it’s the fundamentalists!

Trust me, I have spent time on the religion forum I mentioned arguing against people who are trying to prove evolution a fallacy and creationism correct. They just demonstrate a total lack of understanding of the ideas. This doesn’t mean they are stupid, they may have just been raised in a culture where this wasn’t taught.

My point is that not all religious people think like that, and should not be treated as such. I should mention, as I’ve found this has bearing on conversations, I’m from the UK, where religion isn’t quite such an issue as it is in, say, the US.

To give an example, a friend of mine is a lesbian Christian who doesn’t believe in salvation. She also has a master’s degree in theology. Doesn’t really fit into your fundamentalist box does she?

[Zen Badger]

But your friend is not a fundementalist Christian is she.

[Zagreus]

No, she's not. That's what I'm saying! Not all religious people are fundamentalists, and to treat them so is not correct.

[Zen Badger]

No, she's not. That's what I'm saying! Not all religious people are fundamentalists, and to treat them so is not correct.

But I was talking about fundies specifically.

Not religious people in general, so what exactly is your point?

[Zagreus]

My point is that many atheists just dismiss religion, and I think it's an interesting subject. You said it made you laugh, well why? I'm arguing that atheists shouldn't just dismiss religious people's ideas as silly superstitions.

You were the one who brought up fundamentalists, not me. Maybe we should just avoid discussing fundamentalist ideas here, as we seem to be both agreeing that there is no beardy man in he sky. I am saying there is more to religion than that, and that's why I find it fascinating.

[Retorth]

Zagreus,

That is exactly my point, that religion is used for personal greed and other personal gains. Religion has been an excuse for countless generations of evil-doing. I am not against the few religious individuals who are good people but they should be able to do good without religion anyway. If you need religion to do good then that is insincere.

To sum it up, I am not against theists in general (minus the fundies of course) but I am against the concept of religion. Personally, I feel the world would do far better without it.

Re

[Zen Badger]

We are talking about people who literally believe that

a great big santa claus figure in the sky created the universe six thousand

years ago(despite ALL evidence to the contrary).

Is going to put the people of the world through months of torture(revelations)

And is prepared to condemm you to everlasting torment in hell

if you have a wank.

What exactly is there NOT to laugh at?????????

[LEDO]

Well, Religion makes me laugh.....

If nothing else.

Yes... nonesense can have that effect The rest of the time it just confuses me

"On Earth as it is in Heaven" Check the book section out on this forum. I also have a web pagefiledby link

---

My point is that many atheists just dismiss religion, and I think it's an interesting subject. You said it made you laugh, well why? I'm arguing that atheists shouldn't just dismiss religious people's ideas as silly superstitions.

You were the one who brought up fundamentalists, not me. Maybe we should just avoid discussing fundamentalist ideas here, as we seem to be both agreeing that there is no beardy man in he sky. I am saying there is more to religion than that, and that's why I find it fascinating.

If you want to watch Christians beat each other up, just ask them "What is the true nature or substance of God, or ask them to explain the trinity." It gets to be a hoot.

I claim religion started out as something that was logical and pre-scientific.

[leo-rcc]

Religion teaches that it is not only okay to believe in things that there is no evidence for, it even presents that as a virtue, sometimes even as a prerequisite. I do not agree that religion is a lovely thing. As for your assertion that religion can't be separated from our species, I certainly contend that, as millions of people get along great without it.

[tackattack]

---

Hello Zag,

While I applaud your decision on taking a more "fair" approach towards your stance on religion, I believe most of us, if not all here, have seen way too much violence involving religion to be bothered to give it's possible "good" a second thought.

It's human nature to be violent, it's not a part of religion. People may use religion to justify their actions, but the heart of most (all?) religions that I'm aware of is peace. War is largely about personal greed and politics. The good religion can do can be weighed up too. Yes, war may kill millions of people, but religious people such as Sri Ramakrishna are the cause of foundations that help millions of people. Gandhi could be another example. Remove religion you remove most of our species' history, be it culture, art, thought, etc.

I'm not saying the non-religious have never contributed to violence, but religion further divides a race already divided by so many other factors that its doing much more damage then good, in my opinion.

No, it's people's mentality that divides our species. The idea that I'm right, and you're wrong. Some religious people can be guilty of this, but so are some atheists. A Rabbi a few years ago said to me when I asked him about his views on the other Abhamaic faiths: "I think that if you are a Jew, you should be the best Jew that you can, if you are a Christian you should be the best Christian you can, and if you are a Muslim you should be the best Muslim that you can. We are all worshipping the same G-d after all" (or something like that).

If everyone thought like that, regardless of their faith or lack of it, humanity would get on better. It's the delusion that one idea is right above others is the problem, in my opinion. It's also the necessity to force this belief on others. Dawkins is as guilty of this as any religious person. (Are you getting it yet that I'm not that keen on Dawkins? Sorry, I'll stop mentioning him...)

---

Well, Religion makes me laugh.....

If nothing else.

Yes... nonesense can have that effect The rest of the time it just confuses me

No offence, but these are the types of comment I’m complaining about. Yes, silly people believing in religion. What idiots Socrates, Plato, Isaac Newton, William Blake, Martin Luther King, for example, were.

But Zagreus,

Most fundementalists Christians DO believe in an adult version

of Father Christmas living up in the sky.

They even take the Creation myth seriously.

If you want proof go to answersingenesis.com(which I am ashamed to say was

started by an Australian) where they perform the most amazing mental gymnastics

in order to "prove" Creation true.

I know. I’ve already said I don’t agree AT ALL (emphasis, not shouting) with literalist religious views. Not all religious people think like that though; it’s the fundamentalists!

Trust me, I have spent time on the religion forum I mentioned arguing against people who are trying to prove evolution a fallacy and creationism correct. They just demonstrate a total lack of understanding of the ideas. This doesn’t mean they are stupid, they may have just been raised in a culture where this wasn’t taught.

My point is that not all religious people think like that, and should not be treated as such. I should mention, as I’ve found this has bearing on conversations, I’m from the UK, where religion isn’t quite such an issue as it is in, say, the US.

To give an example, a friend of mine is a lesbian Christian who doesn’t believe in salvation. She also has a master’s degree in theology. Doesn’t really fit into your fundamentalist box does she?

---

Spot on and kudos.

---

Zagreus,

That is exactly my point, that religion is used for personal greed and other personal gains. Religion has been an excuse for countless generations of evil-doing. I am not against the few religious individuals who are good people but they should be able to do good without religion anyway. If you need religion to do good then that is insincere.

To sum it up, I am not against theists in general (minus the fundies of course) but I am against the concept of religion. Personally, I feel the world would do far better without it.

Re

---

So should we get rid of the stock market and banks and political struggle? The fact that some zealot claims religion is his excuse doesn't fault religion, merely the man. I agree it is insincere to do good for religious sake alone.Personally I think a whole hell of a lot of accountability is missing in today's society. People should be held responsible for their own actions. Of course people use religion as an great excuse. It's easier to blame an intangible society that for the most part doesn't test or question their beliefs and follows questionable doctrine. You could blame science, philosophy or political institutions but those societies are based on thinking predominantly. But to dismiss the whole of religion because of individual's decisions and actions is allowing them to pass accountability. I've struggled with the structure of religions myself. I think aspects of religion detract from pure belief, but I won't just dismiss a whole aspect of society so large, and allow personal responsibility to be shelved.