Why Do You or Did You Believe?

[Jenny A]

If someone asked you what makes you believe in morality, what would you say?

If I were being really honest, I would say I feel morality is built into my gut. But I think that only empathy is built into my gut. Much of morality is taught.

If you were to ask where I think it comes from, I would say it's a product of both biological and cultural evolution.

[Mystic]

If someone asked you what makes you believe in morality, what would you say?

If I were being really honest, I would say I feel morality is built into my gut. But I think that only empathy is built into my gut. Much of morality is taught.

If you were to ask where I think it comes from, I would say it's a product of both biological and cultural evolution.

It being built in your gut says nothing about whether you should acknowledge it or value it. Also empathy being natural says nothing about whether it's wrong to ignore more then to act upon it.

Also whether it comes from both biological and cultural evolution, says nothing about whether we should acknowledge it or have faith in it.

So at the end, this doesn't answer the question.

[Cinjin]

It's called imprinting.

Parents who believe do it (often unintentionally) to their children, but the church does it with deliberate and ominous intent.
That's why they set up "fun summer camps" for children. It's imperative that they get their message of eternal reward and hellfire drilled into their little minds. Many people never get it out.

I did.

[Jenny A]

If I were being really honest, I would say I feel morality is built into my gut. But I think that only empathy is built into my gut. Much of morality is taught.

If you were to ask where I think it comes from, I would say it's a product of both biological and cultural evolution.

It being built in your gut says nothing about whether you should acknowledge it or value it. Also empathy being natural says nothing about whether it's wrong to ignore more then to act upon it.

Also whether it comes from both biological and cultural evolution, says nothing about whether we should acknowledge it or have faith in it.

So at the end, this doesn't answer the question.

Hmmm. It's a little like asking why I believe in pain, or love, or fear. I feel them. It's visceral. It's why lie detectors work to the extent that they do.

Why I act on it is different. Morality is necessary to make society work at all. Without it, the human world would be a dark and dangerous place. Fortunately, everyone by psychopaths feels it at some level. That's the biological level. Societies that have taught morality that fosters peaceful cooperative inter-human morality tend to do better.

---

It's called imprinting.

Parents who believe do it (often unintentionally) to their children, but the church does it with deliberate and ominous intent.
That's why they set up "fun summer camps" for children. It's imperative that they get their message of eternal reward and hellfire drilled into their little minds. Many people never get it out.

I did.

Yes, but why did it work on you? Why did you believe? Why did you get out?

[Mystic]

It being built in your gut says nothing about whether you should acknowledge it or value it. Also empathy being natural says nothing about whether it's wrong to ignore more then to act upon it.

Also whether it comes from both biological and cultural evolution, says nothing about whether we should acknowledge it or have faith in it.

So at the end, this doesn't answer the question.

Hmmm. It's a little like asking why I believe in pain, or love, or fear. I feel them. It's visceral. It's why lie detectors work to the extent that the do.

Why I act on it is different. Morality is necessary to make society work at all. Without it, the human world would be a dark and dangerous place. Fortunately, everyone by psychopaths feels it at some level. That's the biological level. Societies that have taught morality that fosters peaceful cooperative inter-human morality tend to do better.

Well it exists in one sense, but it can be false in another sense. Personally, I think belief in morals and soul/spirituality/god(s) came together at some point in our evolution, and that's why it's hard to see any way moral realism can be true without spirituality and soul.

I think at the end, the honest answer, is that morality is a complex phenomenon that makes us feel we know it exists, has different ranks, gives different ranks, is related to all sorts of issues, that may not come down to empathy. At the end our belief in it cannot be justified by words or an explanation. It has to be experienced for ourselves and the reason is an unseen feeling.

In the same way, an unseen connection and feeling towards God to me is why I believe he exist.

[The Grand Nudger]

I wish I could give you more kudos man......

[professor]

Hi Jenny, in answer to your post,
I wanted to know 2 things:
What am I doing here?
Where am I going?

If there is no reason for life, I wanted out.
Measuring the good/bad ratio, I concluded the bad hugely outweighs the good.

If evolution were true, the smartest thing to do is find a painless way to get out of the squirrel cage. But what if there is a hell? Huge dilemma.

I had 3 options:
Blast into a tree at a high rate of speed.
Continue on (the Playboy philosophy was not working or realistic).
Look for the truth about reality.

I began reading books about ghosts / astral projection, and the bible.
After a while I concluded the occult stuff goes nowhere.
I also concluded, out of all the myriad religions, philosophys and views of life- one and only one is true and all the others are lies and shades of lies.
Like a mosaic of tiles on the floor- each being contradictory to the others, they all cannot be true.

I did not want to become a Christian- giving up my individual sovereignty.
This is a really big hurdle for guys especially.
But the words of Jesus were bothering me.
Like: "He that is not with me is against me".
I reasoned that I was not actively FOR Him, therefore, I was against Him.- a bad place to be if He is who He says He is.

At night on my way home from 2nd shift work, on my solitary dark ride home, the question would come repeatedly- "Where will you be in 100 years?
Finally one nigh,t as I lay on my bed contemplating the evil in the world, yet it being an amazing place, i decided to find out if Jesus / God is real.
I felt like I was going out on a limb of a tree and started to saw it off while sitting on it.
I repented and prayed a contrite prayer, I prayed an "Our Father" and I said- "Do with me whatever you want, but don't ever let me go".
Instantly I woke up to the morning light and I KNEW God was real.
No recollection of falling asleep and with an inner knowledge of the reality of God.
I was also delighted that the limb I seemed to be sawing did not fall down.
I found out later that I was born from above that night.

That was 42 years ago.
He has never let me go regardless of frustrations or discouragements.
The years have added knowledge and confidence, especially after having a fascination for the prophetic portions of the bible.

[Jenny A]

Hi Jenny, in answer to your post,
I wanted to know 2 things:
What am I doing here?
Where am I going?

If there is no reason for life, I wanted out.
Measuring the good/bad ratio, I concluded the bad hugely outweighs the good.

If evolution were true, the smartest thing to do is find a painless way to get out of the squirrel cage. But what if there is a hell? Huge dilemma.

The not wanting to live if evolution were true, part I really don't get, but I'll take it as a given and march along.

I had 3 options:
Blast into a tree at a high rate of speed.
Continue on (the Playboy philosophy was not working or realistic).
Look for the truth about reality.

OK, given the initial premises I'm with you.

I began reading books about ghosts / astral projection, and the bible.
After a while I concluded the occult stuff goes nowhere.
I also concluded, out of all the myriad religions, philosophys and views of life- one and only one is true and all the others are lies and shades of lies.
Like a mosaic of tiles on the floor- each being contradictory to the others, they all cannot be true.

Indeed, they certainly cannot all be true.

I did not want to become a Christian- giving up my individual sovereignty.

Got that.

But the words of Jesus were bothering me.
Like: "He that is not with me is against me".
I reasoned that I was not actively FOR Him, therefore, I was against Him.- a bad place to be if He is who He says He is.

Lost me again unless you already believed at this point.

At night on my way home from 2nd shift work, on my solitary dark ride home, the question would come repeatedly- "Where will you be in 100 years?
Finally one nigh,t as I lay on my bed contemplating the evil in the world, yet it being an amazing place, i decided to find out if Jesus / God is real.
I felt like I was going out on a limb of a tree and started to saw it off while sitting on it.
I repented and prayed a contrite prayer, I prayed an "Our Father" and I said- "Do with me whatever you want, but don't ever let me go".
Instantly I woke up to the morning light and I KNEW God was real.
No recollection of falling asleep and with an inner knowledge of the reality of God.
I was also delighted that the limb I seemed to be sawing did not fall down.
I found out later that I was born from above that night.

That I get, even if I've never felt it and would probably question it if I did.

That was 42 years ago.
He has never let me go regardless of frustrations or discouragements.
The years have added knowledge and confidence, especially after having a fascination for the prophetic portions of the bible.

If we were to argue about the prophetic portions of the Bible it would be better to do it on another thread.

Thank you. That was illuminating.

[The Grand Nudger]

If evolution were true, the smartest thing to do is find a painless way to get out of the squirrel cage.

Um....because evolution "is true" even if offing yourself were the "smartest thing", you wouldn't be likely to go through with it (be capable of doing it) - and here you are. Intellectually flirting with the notion whilst your biological heritage immediately discards it. Of course, I'd hardly call that the smartest thing anyway.

Other than that, the rest is fascinating. Looking forward to seeing you flesh the story out.

[professor]

Jenny, and Rythm, - the official line is evolution/ no reason behind life.

Without an overpowering reason to continue in life when the pleasure/ good does not come even close to the unpleasant/bad experiences, why would one go on?
I am a very practical guy, when you stand back and look at life objectively and dispassionately, leaving here looks quite reasonable.
After all- all of us do leave one day don't we?
It is just a matter of timing.

About Jesus' words- the key is IF He is who He says He is.......I did not know for sure who He is.

Oh, Rythm, I purposely kept my testimony short.