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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 5:03 am
You guys are really harping on the use of the word designed here. Let's bear in mind that the term evolution was not coined until long after Hobbs death, so Hobbs despite being a intelligent and insightful man was still a product of his time.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 10:19 am
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2014 at 10:22 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Sure, but I'm not addressing Hobbes, I'm addressing Sho'nuff. LOL< Hobbes has an alibi.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 11:58 am
Nature creates first (variation), and then tests (selection). In some sense man does the same, but what distinguishes him is he can also test first (in mind) and then create.
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 11:59 am
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2014 at 12:03 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Selection isn't a test. It's just an event. There are no metrics. Some things breed successfully, some don't (and the set one finds one's self in can change at a moments notice). Some things breed prolifically and then are utterly destroyed (dinosaurs come to mind) others breed very rarely and yet they remain. All that matters is what remains, regardless of the why or the how.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 12:21 pm
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2014 at 12:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Just to continue the thought - with regards to any "test" being run by nature, any two creatures can leverage the same mechanism with entirely disimilar results. One question can be answered by two creatures in identical ways and be correct, two different ways and both be wrong, or two identical ways and be correct in one creature but incorrect in another. "Test" doesn't work with regards to selection for the same reasons that design doesn't work. If what we do is test, then nature doesn't. If what nature does is test, then we don't. Unpacking the baggage that language brings with it is immensely helpful if we want to understand selection specifically, or nature in general.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 12:34 pm
I disagree.
Definition of TEST
1
a chiefly British : cupel
b (1) : a critical examination, observation, or evaluation : trial; specifically : the procedure of submitting a statement to such conditions or operations as will lead to its proof or disproof or to its acceptance or rejection <a test of a statistical hypothesis>
I think you're being pedantic in order to maintain a point.
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 12:41 pm
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2014 at 12:41 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I love it when we disagree. In what way does selection lead to proof or disproof, acceptance or rejection - and don't all of these terms imply something we don't see in the process to begin with? I don't mind being pedantic when it comes to understanding evolutionary processes. I'd wear that as a badge of pride, so thanks, I suppose. Like I asked Sho'nuff, are we talking biology or writing a poem?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 1:22 pm
(July 14, 2014 at 12:41 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I love it when we disagree. In what way does selection lead to proof or disproof, acceptance or rejection - and don't all of these terms imply something we don't see in the process to begin with? I don't mind being pedantic when it comes to understanding evolutionary processes. I'd wear that as a badge of pride, so thanks, I suppose. Like I asked Sho'nuff, are we talking biology or writing a poem?
Darwin himself drew the same analogy. You're claiming that it literally has to be a test in order for my point about the order of the operators to remain valid. It doesn't. It can be analogous to a test and the point holds mutatis mutandis.
Wikipedia Wrote:Natural selection is the gradual process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of the effect of inherited traits on the differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment. It is a key mechanism of evolution. The term "natural selection" was popularized by Charles Darwin who intended it to be compared with artificial selection, now more commonly referred to as selective breeding.
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 1:33 pm
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2014 at 1:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Good for Darwin, but like Hobbes, he has an alibi. Didn't I just ask you in what way it's analogous to a test? Clearly, I don't think it is, but I'm open to the possibility that it could be, I'd just like to see you make it so.
(darwin drew the comparison to selective breeding because he figured it would be more persuasive that way, easier to explain...and he was right - I'm not sure how that is supposed to reenforce your opinion on this?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is "discourse of the mind" evidence of design?
July 14, 2014 at 1:41 pm
I don't think I need to spell it out for you. Why don't you make whatever point you thought you had to make?
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