Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 27, 2024, 1:24 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Who was James the brother of Jesus?
#21
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
(January 20, 2010 at 5:21 pm)chatpilot Wrote: rjh4 said: "Maybe so. Why do you suppose then there are many Biblical scholars who think that the history portrayed in the NT is accurate?"

I am shocked that you even used this argument lol. So I will tell you why I am shocked. What makes you think that a biblical scholars opinions are as authoritative as that of a scientists? Not to mention that the so called accurate history you talk about is not so accurate at all. There are many holes in Christian history that have yet to be reconciled outside of the scriptures by historians. Outside of the N.T. Jesus is practically non existent and no historian of his time even bothered to write about him so that says alot about his importance.

Oh I almost forgot one last thing about your question, biblical scholars are biased and their goal is to prove the truthfulness and accuracy of the bible which to date they have failed miserably at that endeavor. But the start from the bible and try to make everything else fit nice and neatly but in reality it doesn't fit so neatly at all.

If you look at my post, I did not make an argument. I asked a question.

If it is your position that Biblical scholars are biased, do you also think that those scholars that take a position opposite to the Bible are not?
Reply
#22
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
"If it is your position that Biblical scholars are biased, why do you think that those scholars that take a position opposite to the Bible are not?"

Because at least in my case I have studied the bible and worshiped your god and practiced Christianity devoutly. It was my search for truth that led me away from the bible. It is my opinion that any intellectually honest individual that reads that bible from an objective point of view will come away believing in it less. Most of the science in the bible has been proven wrong, strip away the miraculous and the histories related in scripture are skewed and in many cases unverifiable.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition

http://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/

Reply
#23
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
(January 20, 2010 at 5:19 pm)theVOID Wrote: Some of it is accurate Rjh, in other instances there are glaring contradictions with more reliable contemporary sources for these historic events.

Which parts do you think are accurate?
(January 20, 2010 at 5:36 pm)chatpilot Wrote: "If it is your position that Biblical scholars are biased, why do you think that those scholars that take a position opposite to the Bible are not?"

Because at least in my case I have studied the bible and worshiped your god and practiced Christianity devoutly. It was my search for truth that led me away from the bible. It is my opinion that any intellectually honest individual that reads that bible from an objective point of view will come away believing in it less. Most of the science in the bible has been proven wrong, strip away the miraculous and the histories related in scripture are skewed and in many cases unverifiable.

Sorry about that, my question was not really accurate so I edited it but you responded before I finished.

Do you think that those scholars that take a position opposite to the Bible are not biased?
Reply
#24
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
not a problem my friend
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition

http://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/

Reply
#25
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
(January 20, 2010 at 5:49 pm)chatpilot Wrote: not a problem my friend

Thanks. Smile

Could you please answer the question:

Do you think that those scholars that take a position opposite to the Bible are not biased?
Reply
#26
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
If those scholars are using the conventional methods of research namely historical documents, archeology, and objectivity then they are not biased. But of course there are some that are hell bent on proving or rather disproving the bible, those are certainly biased.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition

http://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/

Reply
#27
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
(January 20, 2010 at 5:52 pm)rjh4 Wrote:
(January 20, 2010 at 5:49 pm)chatpilot Wrote: not a problem my friend

Thanks. Smile

Could you please answer the question:

Do you think that those scholars that take a position opposite to the Bible are not biased?

Do you think the ones that take a position supporting the bible aren't?

There are Atheist and Christian scholars on either side of the debate of the historicity of the NT. Certain atheists believe it is fairly accurate, most would not agree - It's the opposite with Christian scholars, some who do not regard it as a very accurate historical source while the majority to believe it is reliable and accurate.

At the end of the day it's all about weighing the evidence for and against the arguments, i'm happy to listen to either side of the debate as long as it is a well supported and factual argument.
.
Reply
#28
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
(January 20, 2010 at 3:05 pm)rjh4 Wrote:
(January 20, 2010 at 2:06 pm)Minimalist Wrote: When Livy recounts the reasons for the Second Punic War he has characters give "speeches" outlining the issues involved. But when he writes that "Fabius Maximus mounted the rostrum and addressed the Senate as follows...." we can be certain that Fabius said no such thing. Livy, writing two centuries later did not have access to a verbatim account of any discussion in the senate. No such records were kept. Even worse, he will have a member of the Carthaginian war party addressing Carthage's senate on the reasons for starting the war! Certainly there were no Roman spies sitting there taking notes of what was said.

We have no original documents written by any of these "people" including James and Paul. They are characters to be manipulated by later power brokers.

Do we have any original documents of Livy? If not, how old are the earliest?


No, but since you asked a really good question I exerted myself to dig out a copy of Rome and The Mediterranean and in the introduction, Prof. Henry Bettenson notes:

" ...the discovery of Latin manuscripts extended the study of Livy. In 1328 Petrarch at Avignon, using a copy of a Chartres manuscript, introduced Books XXXI-XL. "

I checked for data on a Chartres manuscript of Livy but found only references to the manuscript not to the date of copying. It has been associated with Fulcher of Chartres who was a chronicler of the First Crusade which probably means that the manuscript existed c 1080 although we do not know how long it before that date.


It seems unlikely that parchment copies of anything would last very long in the moist climate of France without frequent re-copying. Egypt was a much better climate for preserving documents.
Quote:35 are extant (Books I-X, XXI-XLV).


But 'extant' in this case does not mean in Livy's own hand. We are lucky to have copies of copies.
Reply
#29
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
Thanks for clarifying that up Min I thought that the paragraph was referring to the original writings. Here it is in its entirety.

His life work was the History of Rome from its founding in 753 BC The narrative comes to an end with Drusus (9 BC). Of the original 142 books of the work (published in sections) 35 are extant (Books I-X, XXI-XLV).

That "of the original 142 books....35 are extant" meant to me that they were making a distinction between copies and originals, and that 35 were still in existence. I did some digging and found that you are correct. It's still more than I can say for the bible since we know who the author of these works was, as opposed to the slew of anonymous authors of the bible.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition

http://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/

Reply
#30
RE: Who was James the brother of Jesus?
(January 20, 2010 at 6:45 pm)theVOID Wrote: Do you think the ones that take a position supporting the bible aren't?

There are Atheist and Christian scholars on either side of the debate of the historicity of the NT. Certain atheists believe it is fairly accurate, most would not agree - It's the opposite with Christian scholars, some who do not regard it as a very accurate historical source while the majority to believe it is reliable and accurate.

At the end of the day it's all about weighing the evidence for and against the arguments, i'm happy to listen to either side of the debate as long as it is a well supported and factual argument.

I think there is a certain degree of bias on either side of the issue.

I also think there are those on each side of the issue that try to put their biases aside and analyze Biblical manuscripts in the same manner as any other ancient historical document.

What bothers me here is the allegation of many here that there is no evidence whatsoever for the historicity of the Bible or the historicity of Jesus, Himself. Such allegations do not seem credible at all given that some atheists even think it is acccurate. Now I know that this does not prove that the Bible is true and I am not trying to do this, I am just trying to point out the weakness of arguing that there is no evidence whatsoever for the Bible.

@Min

Thanks for your post, Min. You clearly have quite an extensive knowledge history and historical issues.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Elder James Hamula released, excommunicated from LDS Church c172 11 7207 August 10, 2017 at 11:09 am
Last Post: vorlon13
  Did Shakespeare Contribute to the King James Bible? Rhondazvous 12 6052 June 25, 2017 at 6:09 am
Last Post: Brian37
  Do you think Epistle of James was written by "James Brother of Jesus" Rolandson 13 2662 December 31, 2016 at 9:39 pm
Last Post: robvalue
  Did "james son of zebedee" ever meet Paul the Apostle? Coreni 6 4679 June 25, 2015 at 1:03 pm
Last Post: Metis
  In Christianity, Does Jesus' Soul Have Anything To Do With Why Jesus Is God? JesusIsGod7 18 7862 October 7, 2014 at 12:58 pm
Last Post: JesusHChrist
  YECs not xtian according to James McGrath Godlesspanther 14 5592 January 4, 2014 at 10:23 am
Last Post: MitchBenn
  Hitchens Essay on King James Bible. 5thHorseman 4 3729 January 3, 2012 at 1:55 am
Last Post: LarissaAnn
  Jesus the Spiritual Warrior vs Jesus the Sacrificial Lamb Dosaiah 8 7710 December 5, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Last Post: Minimalist



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)