Can Christians be humanists and moralists?

[fr0d0]

You're going to need a bigger shovel Wolfie

[Bad Wolf]

[Natachan]

The question is not whether Christians can act moral or not, as they undoubtedly can, but is it also possible for a person who consistently derives their sense of morality from a book as anti-humanistic as the Bible (or if you're Muslim, the Qur'an) to actually be a moralist?--to ponder deeply the difficult moral dilemmas or social conflicts (sorry but you can't apply Jesus' few moral insights, such as the Golden Rule, to the majority of situations this might include) that often throw themselves at humanity--and be relied upon to arrive at sensible, rational, compassionate, and commendable moral convictions?

If any Christian finds my question comically condescending, well, how does it feel to have the tables turned?

As humanism was originally a Protestant movement, yes.

[Mudhammam]

As humanism was originally a Protestant movement, yes.

Really? I take it you must be talking about more recent liberal Christians who saw fit to render the monstrous deity of the Old Testament and the fire-and-brimstone threats of the New as harmless mythologies? Because otherwise I couldn't think of more diametrically opposed ideologies.

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In answer to the OP, I rather think most christians do consider themselves to be humanist and moralist- at least within the context of the good we associate with those terms. It's just that their view of reality incorporates a number of things that we atheists don't believe exist, and those things present their own moral considerations that, as often nonsensical as they are to us, are entirely consistent within the personal interpretation of christianity that a given theist believes.

Basically, yes christians can be humanists and moralists, it's just that the way they go about being such begins with a different set of priorities that sometimes contradict what we think of as being humanist.

But whereas a Christian would likely see the imprisonment of a young woman and her dispersal from her family for opting to remove the unsentient clump of cells that they call a baby from her body as a moral victory, or embrace submission and meekness in the face of tyrannical threats over any form of rebellion and armed resolve as obedience to God's commands (a supreme, glorified tyranny in-of-itself) and hence--this is the kicker--guarantee their treasure where moths cannot destroy, as in, encourage otherworldly-mindedness in themselves and their brethen even when it is the present world that actually demands their hearts and minds, I propose that all of this detracts from a better, more authentic, more humane conception of morality; one which their atheist and free thinking counterparts have the liberty to invent and improve.

[Zidneya]

The question is not whether Christians can act moral or not, as they undoubtedly can, but is it also possible for a person who consistently derives their sense of morality from a book as anti-humanistic as the Bible (or if you're Muslim, the Qur'an) to actually be a moralist?--to ponder deeply the difficult moral dilemmas or social conflicts (sorry but you can't apply Jesus' few moral insights, such as the Golden Rule, to the majority of situations this might include) that often throw themselves at humanity--and be relied upon to arrive at sensible, rational, compassionate, and commendable moral convictions?

If any Christian finds my question comically condescending, well, how does it feel to have the tables turned?

I'm gonna quote JC on this one.
"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other".


You cannot serve both the Bible and the World. Because no matter how many (supposed) love is in the bible theres gonna be a point were religious people are gonna have to choose to either reject what's written on it or don't.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, Frodo...that's hedonism..not humanism........ hedonism (and not even ethical hedonism...yuck). I can see how this completely real person that you absolutely didn't make up might confuse the two, they both start with an H.

[genkaus]

It is possible for a Christian to be a humanist and a moralist if he/she creates very specific interpretations of the bible....

Given that the question was about someone who "consistently derives the sense of morality from the bible", wouldn't creative interpretation disqualify him from consideration?

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Humanism as I understand it is selfishly human centred, and would be against Christian morals. Humanism can be the pursuit of personal pleasure to the exclusion of other humans. Certainly non humans and environmental concerns, for example.

That would be hedonism.

Otherwise, secular humanism is pretty much in line and mimics Christian values.

Its the other way around - Christians creatively reinterpreted their bible so that their values would match the emerging system of humanism.

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It's not what you want to call humanism Wolfie. But a humanist explained his position to me as that.

Which humanist?

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In answer to the OP, I rather think most christians do consider themselves to be humanist and moralist- at least within the context of the good we associate with those terms. It's just that their view of reality incorporates a number of things that we atheists don't believe exist, and those things present their own moral considerations that, as often nonsensical as they are to us, are entirely consistent within the personal interpretation of christianity that a given theist believes.

Basically, yes christians can be humanists and moralists, it's just that the way they go about being such begins with a different set of priorities that sometimes contradict what we think of as being humanist.

I'd argue that those "number of things that we atheists don't believe exist and present their own moral considerations" are what would prevent them from being humanists, should they choose to remain consistent with their belief system.

Its not just about what your moral conclusions are but why they are so as well. The idea behind humanism is to regard humans (individually and collectively) as a primary consideration and reason a moral system based on it. Those "other things" that Christians believe in should, upon consistent application, require them to put their god before human considerations and have a moral system based on having faith in his commands. That those commands can be creatively reinterpreted to more closely match humanist principles doesn't make them so.

[fr0d0]

LOL, Frodo...that's hedonism..not humanism........ hedonism (and not even ethical hedonism...yuck). I can see how this completely real person that you absolutely didn't make up might confuse the two, they both start with an H.

You are correct. But why would I make them up? lol

[jesus_wept]

LOL, Frodo...that's hedonism..not humanism........ hedonism (and not even ethical hedonism...yuck). I can see how this completely real person that you absolutely didn't make up might confuse the two, they both start with an H.

You are correct. But why would I make them up? lol

I can.only presume stupidity. Anyone stupid enough to confuse humanism with hedonism is stupid enough to invent someone to prove their point.

Also, Christians seem to quite like inventing imaginary people to back up their nonsense.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

A religious person acting upon a guide as perceived by atheists/ opponents to that guide would most certainly be acting immorally

Humanism as I understand it is selfishly human centred, and would be against Christian morals. Humanism can be the pursuit of personal pleasure to the exclusion of other humans. Certainly non humans and environmental concerns, for example. Otherwise, secular humanism is pretty much in line and mimics Christian values. It all sounds good although I find its proponents have no grounding and can quickly switch to extreme selfishness because they have no loyalty to humanism.

This is what the BHA lists as their core values (they expand in other sections of their site which are easily accessible):

https://humanism.org.uk/about/our-values/