Rant against anti-atheist agnostics.

[Brian37]

what does an atheist believe animates the body .... until it doesn't ?

Atoms, sorry if that isn't glamorous enough for you, but that is the mundane reality.

[bennyboy]

I dont see anyone on here saying "I dont know" ... it is all "there is NO WAY A GOD COULD EXIST, because it cant be proven?

Nobody here has ever said that.

And while I dont believe any of the current theories .... I open myself to the thought that man once KNEW the earth was flat, and he KNEW the earth was the center of the universe .... he was eventually proven wrong!

Right. Man once knew Sky Daddy was real, and then he started flying jet planes.

I just want to be open to the possibility that we are all wrong about it all !!! is that too much to ask ?? its been the case before you ???

Excessive punctuation is a symptom of a weak, hysterical mind.

What animates the body ... until it doesn't?

The sun's energy.

[Outtahere]

I just want to be open to the possibility that we are all wrong about it all !!! is that too much to ask ?? its been the case before you know???

Excessive punctuation is a symptom of a weak, hysterical mind.

And turning the point of a conversation towards insulting ones intelligence for grammatical errors in such a relaxed, non-formal format, is a symptom of a short cut to thinking of something clever to say.

What animates the body ... until it doesn't?

The sun's energy.
[/quote]

the Sun, Really, just shows how easy it is to preach at museum about what everybody else is wrong about, and put no thought into a real answer. The Sun, produces a chemical process that makes you like Peanuts, or be allergic to them ? The Sun's chemical process makes it hurt when your Dad dies ? ... or helps you decide whether "Happy Gilmore" was funny or stupid?

I mean if you really believe that, and that is your well thought out answer to what you believe, then that's fine, I'm good with it,

But I was asking an earnest question, you drew 1st blood on being an insulting smart ass

Doc

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what does an atheist believe animates the body .... until it doesn't ?

Atoms, sorry if that isn't glamorous enough for you, but that is the mundane reality.

" but that is the mundane reality."
[/quote]

See ... spoken as a FACT , something you KNOW to be true, implying that you are privy to information that the rest of us are not , this is my whole issue.

Doc

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sure seems like those chemical process fight like hell to stay in that piece of dirt .... aware if they are trapped in a burning car ...
[...]

Yes. And your computer can be "aware" of and defend itself against a virus, even though it's all just 1s and 0s being coded in, transmitted by and decoded from electrical impulses. And our computers don't come even close to the complexity of our bodies and especially brains.

We evolved over billions of years from primitive, single-cell life-forms. Who knows where they came from and what made them "want" to survive, but since they did - that's a defining characteristic of all earthly life. Those early organisms and life-forms that were not aware of or "indifferent" to the end of their existence - stopped existing and are not here to testify about how they didn't care for their survival in certain circumstances (although we have plenty of data on what made more advanced organisms succeed, or not).

You are looking at this from the perspective of a lottery winner. Sure it seems unlikely, but if it happened - it happened, because here you are. Assuming design and/or designer/creator may be fun and games, but Occam's Razor makes short work of this proposition right now, because there's no evidence for it and evolution seems to explain everything pretty elegantly, while being a way simpler solution.

We know that it's possible (though very unlikely) to win the lottery, because of the mathematics. I don't have to win the lottery on demand, to prove that. Nor do I need to prove that one can - way more easily - lose at the lottery. But without some knowledge of math and probablities, someone who won at first try may find it difficult to imagine that countless others lost countless times. And someone who always lost may doubt the mere possibility of winning.

I don't agree on all points , but thank you for taking the time to answer seriously and with a due amount of forethought.

Doc

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Right, in my opinion, life is nothing special. Some stuff moves around more than other stuff, but it's all just physics and chemistry. We're built from the same stuff as non-life, just in different configurations.

The mystery to me is consciousness, it seems paradoxical and impossible to get round because it seems to separate "me" (consciousness) from "my body" (brain). But scientifically I see no basis for them to be separate. It's some sort of product of the way the brain works, is my best guess. "Where" it is, is the question... but the question probably doesn't even make sense.

Right, life is not special. Bacteria and cockroaches have been around alot longer and way outnumber our species. But somehow theists think by accepting that, that we cannot find value in the finite time we have, which is really bullshit. Atheists can and do value life. We simply skip the superstition to explain anything.

The difference between the atheist and the believer is we accept our modern knowledge and don't cling to old explanations that were never true in the first place. It was understandable that people made bad guesses when they didn't know any better, but we know better now.

I don't understand how asking the same questions man has always asked , automatically puts me at odds with you? I am in total agreement that no religion is real or has ever done anything but harm and slow the march of the human race to realizing its potential !

But , just because I know all the old info is bad , doesn't make me satisfied with giving up on looking for the RIGHT answers !

Why am I here? For how long? What am I? What animates this flesh until it doesn't? Where do my thoughts generate? why cant I just think what I want? What will I be when I cease to be? atheism doesn't mean we stop asking these questions, only that we believe we haven't arrived at the answer yet? right?

Doc

[dyresand]

I don't see any logic reason for getting angry or hating atheists or being a anti atheist.
For one why would you get mad at a group that doesn't believe in a god and attack science and their own world view
without first questioning your own.

[Whateverist]

Why am I here? For how long? What am I? What animates this flesh until it doesn't? Where do my thoughts generate? why cant I just think what I want? What will I be when I cease to be? atheism doesn't mean we stop asking these questions, only that we believe we haven't arrived at the answer yet? right?

Doc

Well, atheism doesn't forbid you to ask those questions but neither does it oblige you to.

I have no interest in "Why am I here?" That's something I decide as I go along, not something I look for.

I have no interest in "What animates this flesh until it doesn't?" I'm content to let those more qualified explore the barrier between the organic and non-organic.

"What will I be when I cease to be?" Dead. I assume.

I have questions that interest me, they just aren't retreads of old theist chestnuts. Knock yourself out if these are the ones you like, but really, who are you to decide what questions should interest everyone else?

[Outtahere]

I want to thank those of you who at least tried to understand where I'm at, and apologize to any I have offended.

I wish to thank you for your opinions, that's all I ever asked for. And even though I know I can come off as confrontational, I believe I apologized for that in my intro

But please understand, I am here to ask questions, and I don't see why that is met with hostility, even if they are questions you are tired of answering! I will only say, I am in a bad, bad place. My friends are dying, my family members are dying, some of which I have suffered decades of Christian fundamentalist abuse from. And I guess I'm reaching for a language to speak to them in while I can, so we can both forgive (for my ALERGY to the word Jesus, I take half the blame).

My friends are lost , my daughter is lost, I want to be a rock or a life raft , chose your metaphor. My Dad is dead, my Mom's racing toward joining him , and now even my own health is failing at an ever increasing speed. I have spent two years in and out of hospitals, and have aged ten years in the process. And , dammit, I'm scared !!!

I am at a place where other people "pray' , but have searched my soul for decades over that one and found that I do not believe in deity. So, it goes without saying that I don't have that "crutch, or drug" to ease the pain.

and so I came here and just wanted to hear and ask what I thought were "like-minded" individuals what gives them peace? how do they make peace with those they love yet cant speak the same language? How do they make peace with the questions that wont let them sleep?

I intended no melodrama, and if you ask the one here who knows me best, you will definitely be reassured that I will curl up in a fetal position and hide from confrontation if I can ! not because I'm afraid of It, but because I'm so prone to it , and soooo tired of it.

it was only my intent to pick your brains, but it seems that I have , in large part, failed to keep myself out of the way again.

Again, apologies all around , and thank you to those who tried

Doc

[robvalue]

That's Ok, don't worry Doc You're going through a lot, and for that I'm very sorry. Life gets to all of us in one way or another.

I'm happy to continue to give my opinions on whatever you like. I'm very lucky to not have to deal with religious people, the best advice I can give is to try and agree to a truce where you just don't discuss anything religious with them. If they're not prepared to agree to that, then that really is them causing the problem. I personally wouldn't bother to continue a relationship with someone like that.

Keep talking on here so we can support you

As to the big questions, for me I just accept I know some stuff but not a lot of stuff. Maybe we'll find out some day, maybe not. I couldn't care less that I'm going to die, for some reason it's never bothered me. And I've never thought anything is going to happen afterwards.

I am however excited to find out what science will find out next, and to watch religion pretend to have known it all along.

[bennyboy]

Excessive punctuation is a symptom of a weak, hysterical mind.

And turning the point of a conversation towards insulting ones intelligence for grammatical errors in such a relaxed, non-formal format, is a symptom of a short cut to thinking of something clever to say.

It was not a grammatical error. Rather than address an argument rationally, you used punctuation with the intent of conveying emotion instead. This is an intellectual cop-out: "I'm having a hard time, so I don't have to make valid points." Don't do that. If you are having a time, you have my sympathy, and in a thread about that, I will express it; but I don't want to see every thread you get involved in devolve to a collection of virtual hugs and pats on the back.

the Sun, Really, just shows how easy it is to preach at museum about what everybody else is wrong about, and put no thought into a real answer. The Sun, produces a chemical process that makes you like Peanuts, or be allergic to them ? The Sun's chemical process makes it hurt when your Dad dies ? ... or helps you decide whether "Happy Gilmore" was funny or stupid?

You asked what animates the body, not what causes subjective experience to exist, or free will. We know how the sun's energy is stored by plants, converted by animals to meat, and made usable by people, and that's the most concise answer to the question you asked. Instead of talking about animated bodies, just say, "Why mind?"

Personally, I think that the existence of mind is a strong challenge to materialism, and one of the best points for a theist/deist/spiritualist to begin at. So I guess maybe we have that in common?

[comet]

Don't get me wrong, I'm agnostic too. Very much so in fact.

But 'militant' agnostics, like a certain new member whose user name cuts a little close to home, tick me off. Please tell me what it is you think you know about what these god-things are that makes you argue so vociferously against non-belief in them.

I get agnosticism. I don't get anti-atheism. What is that about? Personally I have no more trouble with agnostic theists than I do agnostic atheists. These are my peoples.

Anti-atheist agnostics, like their brethren atheist anti-theists, carry around huge axes to grind. Both talk proudly of reasoned argument and evidence. But both are obviously more animated by emotional bile than any reason they actually own up to. Both are obviously working through issues which cloud their judgment.

[/vent]

been saying it for years fat man. "anti's" is a personality defect. basically a thought process that is "broken" in some mental fashion. all of a sudden you have clarity? cause it "hits close to home now".

"your peeps", that says allot. thus you have a problem with "not your peeps". I guessing that anybody that doesn't stand with your peeps is standing against you. People that are not "anti's" usually pick sides based on information offered and rational analysis of the information. We say things like "you know you are my peep, but on this one I disagree with ya". And If they are "My type" they say "yeah, that's cool. let's go get some beer."

Like you said and you are correct. "Anti-'s" have axes. most anti theist I know have been abused in some way and can't get their butts un-popped. Its standard abused stuff. can't strike the abuser so the victim strike anything related to the abuser. that's studied enough. Anti-atheist, same deal. some axe to grind. We also have a lot of mental illness to go around. Forums are a great place for pretty writers with serious mental issue to get a foot hold. A-la Unabomber types.

humans are an emotional species. some people have trouble clearing emotional debris out of the way so that they can get a good handle on the what the data is showing them. "militants" and "fundie" fit these personality defected types.

I think Many of us have these traits too but the more mature can honestly admit to themselves that their world view is warped and take action to bring it back into focus somewhat.

But the sickest of us all are the ones that pretend to be someone else on a form using their hometown and similar name or use socks to argue their case or prove a point. They are the sickest of us. In the end, and I have said it a few times, we are just like our enemy sometimes. May the truly innocent cast that first stone... at the mirror.