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October 20, 2014 at 2:56 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 2:57 pm by TreeSapNest.)
(October 20, 2014 at 1:04 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you think it was pedophilia for a man to marry a 16 year old girl in ancient times?
Pedophilia is postpubescent sexual and/or romantic attraction to prepubescence.
Making life long commitments at 16 are, in my opinion, imprudent in any times. Unions too. Then, now, and in the future, attraction between the mature and the postpubescent immature is almost always purely sexual for the mature and (if consentual) heavily romantic for the immature. It almost always leads to a very hurt young person.
(October 20, 2014 at 10:30 am)Jenny A Wrote: Exodus is a little different . The Bible says god hardened pharaoh's heart. It does not say and god said I will harden pharaoh's heart because you Jews have been misbehaving. You do see the difference. One is a metaphor, the other a promise of punishment.
We could discuss the Jewish view of heaven all day, but fact remains that according to the Bible, god punished a man by killing a child.
I do see that one was a promise of punishment, but that doesn't have any effect on whether one is a metaphor or not. They're both examples of God using the actions of evil men for his purposes.
Really? What was god using Pharaohs actions for?
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
October 20, 2014 at 4:03 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 4:04 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(October 18, 2014 at 9:23 am)Aractus Wrote: Probably 14-15, and Joseph would have been about 17.
I'm not so sure about Joseph being so young. He's apparently dead by the time Jesus begins his ministry. The apocryphal 'History of Joseph the Carpenter' has him as a 90-ish widower with Mary as a young servant charged with caring for one of his sons. It IS apocryphal, but it neatens up the story considerably:
Joseph has a girl, Mary, about 12 years old, in his household. She is betrothed to him, but he is not supposed to consummate the marriage in advance. At 14 or 15, she becomes pregant. Mary was supposed to be under his protection, so how to explain her getting pregnant? She could be stoned as an adultress if he admits he got her pregnant, and it's not unlikely that he was fond of her. A story is concocted, and he takes her out of town to have the baby for the safety of all concerned.
It's just a scenario, but my guess is that Joseph was considerably older than 17--maybe not ninety, but probably well over 17.
October 20, 2014 at 4:11 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 4:13 pm by Jenny A.)
(October 20, 2014 at 2:56 pm)TreeSapNest Wrote:
(October 20, 2014 at 1:04 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you think it was pedophilia for a man to marry a 16 year old girl in ancient times?
Pedophilia is postpubescent sexual and/or romantic attraction to prepubescence.
Making life long commitments at 16 are, in my opinion, imprudent in any times. Unions too. Then, now, and in the future, attraction between the mature and the postpubescent immature is almost always purely sexual for the mature and (if consentual) heavily romantic for the immature. It almost always leads to a very hurt young person.
The OT is bad enough without adding ugly things that aren't there.
It may be imprudent to marry at 16, but it's hardly pedophilia. All of the United States except: California, Indiana, Nebraska, Oregon, and Washington allow girls to marry with parental consent by the age of 16. The remaining four allow marriage with parental consent at 17. A few states allow girls to marry as young as 13 with parental consent.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marr...of_America
(October 20, 2014 at 3:49 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Really? What was god using Pharaohs actions for?
Romans 9:17New Living Translation (NLT)
17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
(October 20, 2014 at 3:49 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Really? What was god using Pharaohs actions for?
Romans 9:17New Living Translation (NLT)
17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
Who cares what Paul says the OT said? You might as well quote Exodus itself: "For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth. 16 But this is why I have let you live: to show you my power, and to make my name resound through all the earth. 17 You are still exalting yourself against my people, and will not let them go. 18 Tomorrow at this time I will cause the heaviest hail to fall that has ever fallen in Egypt from the day it was founded until now. " Exodus 9:15-18 NRSV
"But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned once more and hardened his heart, he and his officials. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses." Exodus 9:34-35
"Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them, 2 and that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I have made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them—so that you may know that I am the Lord.” Exodus 10:1-2.
Okay, let's say it's not a metaphor and god did just what he said and changed Pharaoh's mind for him so he could injure a few more Egyptians since he could come up with a better way to show his power. Happy? Cause it makes god look a hell of a lot less just and more evil to me.
It also really makes a mockery out of free will.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
October 20, 2014 at 6:43 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 6:46 pm by Lek.)
(October 20, 2014 at 5:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Who cares what Paul says the OT said? You might as well quote Exodus itself: "For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth. 16 But this is why I have let you live: to show you my power, and to make my name resound through all the earth. 17 You are still exalting yourself against my people, and will not let them go. 18 Tomorrow at this time I will cause the heaviest hail to fall that has ever fallen in Egypt from the day it was founded until now. " Exodus 9:15-18 NRSV
"But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned once more and hardened his heart, he and his officials. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses." Exodus 9:34-35
"Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them, 2 and that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I have made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them—so that you may know that I am the Lord.” Exodus 10:1-2.
Okay, let's say it's not a metaphor and god did just what he said and changed Pharaoh's mind for him so he could injure a few more Egyptians since he could come up with a better way to show his power. Happy? Cause it makes god look a hell of a lot less just and more evil to me.
It also really makes a mockery out of free will.
If you'll notice it says "he sinned once and hardened his heart." Pharaoh made the decision on his own. That's why it says he sinned again. He couldn't have sinned if he had no choice in the matter. Sin comes about because of free will. Again, it's your idea of how God operates. You're looking at him and determining that he must act according to the way you reason that he would or should. He knows the future, but doesn't always cause it to happen. It's a quality that belongs to God and not to people. When you read scripture, you need to interpret according to what has already been established in the minds of the writers.
Who cares what Paul says the OT said? You might as well quote Exodus itself: "For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth. 16 But this is why I have let you live: to show you my power, and to make my name resound through all the earth. 17 You are still exalting yourself against my people, and will not let them go. 18 Tomorrow at this time I will cause the heaviest hail to fall that has ever fallen in Egypt from the day it was founded until now. " Exodus 9:15-18 NRSV
"But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned once more and hardened his heart, he and his officials. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses." Exodus 9:34-35
"Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them, 2 and that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I have made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them—so that you may know that I am the Lord.” Exodus 10:1-2.
Okay, let's say it's not a metaphor and god did just what he said and changed Pharaoh's mind for him so he could injure a few more Egyptians since he could come up with a better way to show his power. Happy? Cause it makes god look a hell of a lot less just and more evil to me.
It also really makes a mockery out of free will.
If you'll notice it says "he sinned once and hardened his heart." Pharaoh made the decision on his own. That's why it says he sinned again. He couldn't have sinned if he had no choice in the matter. Sin comes about because of free will. Again, it's your idea of how God operates. You're looking at him and determining that he must act according to the way you reason that he would or should. He knows the future, but doesn't always cause it to happen. It's a quality that belongs to God and not to people. When you read scripture, you need to interpret according to what has already been established in the minds of the writers.
Yes Pharaoh's actions are unbelievable (but then the whole Exodus story is unbelievable). However giving the historical accuracy of the story pass for the moment:
You can't have it both ways. Either Pharaoh has a will of his own and "god hardened his heart" is a metaphor. Or god merely made use of the Pharaoh's stubbornness in which case god is lying when he says:
"for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine."
Either god took away pharaoh's free will, or god lied. Which is it?
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
October 20, 2014 at 7:38 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2014 at 7:49 pm by Aractus.)
(October 20, 2014 at 4:03 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I'm not so sure about Joseph being so young. He's apparently dead by the time Jesus begins his ministry. The apocryphal 'History of Joseph the Carpenter' has him as a 90-ish widower with Mary as a young servant charged with caring for one of his sons. It IS apocryphal, but it neatens up the story considerably:
Joseph has a girl, Mary, about 12 years old, in his household. She is betrothed to him, but he is not supposed to consummate the marriage in advance. At 14 or 15, she becomes pregant. Mary was supposed to be under his protection, so how to explain her getting pregnant? She could be stoned as an adultress if he admits he got her pregnant, and it's not unlikely that he was fond of her. A story is concocted, and he takes her out of town to have the baby for the safety of all concerned.
It's just a scenario, but my guess is that Joseph was considerably older than 17--maybe not ninety, but probably well over 17.
The bible doesn't say how old either of them were. I do not think, as a sceptic, you can take a single word of the nativity as historically based, however the one thing that is true is that Jesus had two parents and they were Joseph and Mary, and he had siblings, and some (or all) of his brothers were James, Joseph, Jude and Simon. I think that much is true and can be said with a reasonable degree of confidence.
(October 20, 2014 at 12:18 pm)Lek Wrote: 18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.
This is not talking about pedophilia. They were keeping alive the young virgins so they could eventually be brides. This isn't allowing them to rape these girls.
Or concubines (sex slaves). You have to acknowledge that much - and the wording (elsewhere where women are also to be taken as plunder by the Jews) strongly suggests the women will end up as concubines and not wives because they are "taken as plunder" - i.e. the men are taking ownership of them, and women could never be freed from slavery under the Law of Moses.
(October 20, 2014 at 1:04 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you think it was pedophilia for a man to marry a 16 year old girl in ancient times?
Even today that's not paedophilia. It may be illegal, it may be statutory rape, but it's not paedophilia.
Paedophilia only refers to when an adult at least 10 years older than the victim, has sex (or sexual contact) with a prepubescent child. It is a tangible sexual orientation - i.e. some people are sexually attracted to prepubescent children, and generally speaking it makes no difference what gender the child is to the paedophile.
(October 20, 2014 at 2:56 pm)TreeSapNest Wrote: Pedophilia is postpubescent sexual and/or romantic attraction to prepubescence.
Making life long commitments at 16 are, in my opinion, imprudent in any times. Unions too. Then, now, and in the future, attraction between the mature and the postpubescent immature is almost always purely sexual for the mature and (if consentual) heavily romantic for the immature. It almost always leads to a very hurt young person.
Exactly, it cannot lead to a lasting relationship because once the child hits puberty they are no longer attractive or desirable to the paedophile.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
(October 20, 2014 at 7:19 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Yes Pharaoh's actions are unbelievable (but then the whole Exodus story is unbelievable). However giving the historical accuracy of the story pass for the moment:
You can't have it both ways. Either Pharaoh has a will of his own and "god hardened his heart" is a metaphor. Or god merely made use of the Pharaoh's stubbornness in which case god is lying when he says:
"for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine."
Either god took away pharaoh's free will, or god lied. Which is it?
My interpretation is that it's in the mindset and language of the writer. God knew what Pharaoh would do, and that in turn, would fit in to his plan to free the Israelites from captivity. The quoted verses definitely say that Pharaoh sinned and made the decision, showing his free will in the matter. It would be hard to imagine Moses, or whoever wrote the passages, portraying God as a liar. That's my take on it.
