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Transcendental Knowledge?
#1
Transcendental Knowledge?
Yesterday I began reading the first of three books by Arthur Schopenhauer that I recently purchased (The Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason, The World as Will and Representation, and On the Freedom of the Will). Like Kant and many of his followers, I get the sense that Schopenhauer (perhaps rightly) doesn't think very highly of philosophical realism. The trouble is, I'm not quite sure what to make of Idealism, of which I still have not seen a convincing rebuttal (or even attempt at rationalization) of Darwinian evolution, which in my mind seemed to put the mind in its proper place in the history of the physical world. That said, I do feel that Kant blew a wide hole in perhaps cruder or naive forms of realism, and though I have yet to read the works of Bertrand Russell and others whom defend that point of view, I'm not sure I see a way out from statements such as the following (from Schopenhauer in the Fourfold Root; bold mine, italics in original; the smaller quotes are from the E.F.J. Payne translation, the larger I borrowed from Karl Hildeband here, where the full work is available. I much prefer Payne's version, which can also be read here):

"Kant's profound investigations... led to transcendental Idealism from which the conviction arises that the world is just as dependent upon us, as a whole, as we are on it in particular. For by pointing out the transcendental principles as such through which we are able to determine a priori, in other words, prior to all experience, something about objects and their possibility, he proved that, independently of our knowledge, these things cannot exist just as they present themselves to us. The resemblance between such a world and the dream is plain."

"The function of the understanding... constitutes the basis of empirical reality."

"Now as, notwithstanding this union through the Understanding of the forms of the inner and outer sense in representing Matter and with it a permanent outer world, all immediate knowledge is nevertheless acquired by the Subject through the inner sense alone—the outer sense being again Object for the inner, which in its turn perceives the perceptions of the outer—and as therefore, with respect to the immediate presence of representations in its consciousness, the Subject remains under the rule of Time alone, as the form of the inner sense : [52] it follows, that only one representation can be present to it (the Subject) at the same time, although that one may be very complicated. When we speak of representations as immediately present, we mean, that they are not only known in the union of Time and Space effected by the Understanding—an intuitive faculty, as we shall soon see—through which the collective representation of empirical reality arises, but that they are known in mere Time alone, as representations of the inner sense, and just at the neutral point at which its two currents separate, called the present. The necessary condition mentioned in the preceding paragraph for the immediate presence of a representation of this class, is its causal action upon our senses and consequently upon our organism, which itself belongs to this class of objects, and is therefore subject to the causal law which predominates in it and which we are now about to examine. Now as therefore, on the one hand, according to the laws of the inner and outer world, the Subject cannot stop short at that one representation ; but as, on the other hand, there is no coexistence in Time alone: [that single representation must always vanish and be superseded by others, in virtue of a law which we cannot determine a priori, but which depends upon circumstances soon to be mentioned. It is moreover a well-known fact, that the imagination and dreams reproduce the immediate presence of representations ; the investigation of that fact, however, belongs to empirical Psychology. Now as, notwithstanding the transitory, isolated nature of our representations with respect to their immediate presence in our consciousness, the Subject nevertheless retains the representation of an all-comprehensive complex of reality, as described above, by means of the function of the Understanding ; representations have, on the strength of this antithesis, been viewed, as something quite different when considered as belonging to that complex than when considered with reference to their immediate presence in our consciousness. From the former point of view they were called real things ; from the latter only, representations ἐξοχήν. This view of the matter, which is the ordinary one, is known under the name of Realism. On the appearance of modern philosophy, Idealism opposed itself to this Realism and has since been steadily gaining ground. Malebranche and Berkeley were its earliest representatives, and Kant enhanced it to the power of Transcendental Idealism, by which the co-existence of the Empirical Reality of things with their Transcendental Ideality becomes conceivable, and according to which Kant expresses himself as follows : [53] "Transcendental Idealism teaches that all phenomena are representations only, not things by themselves." And again: [54] " Space itself is nothing but mere representation, and what ever is in it must therefore be contained in that representation. There is nothing whatever in Space, except so far as it is really represented in it." Finally he says : [55] "If we take away the thinking Subject, the whole material world must vanish ; because it is nothing but a phenomenon in the sensibility of our own subject and a certain class of its representations." In India, Idealism is even a doctrine of popular religion, not only of Brahminism, but of Buddhism ; in Europe alone is it a paradox, in consequence of the essentially and unavoidably realistic principle of Judaism. But Realism quite overlooks the fact, that the so-called existence of these real things is absolutely nothing but their being represented (ein Vorgestellt-werderi), or—if it be insisted, that only the immediate presence in the consciousness of the Subject can be called being represented κατ' ἐνετλέχειαν—it is even only a possibility of being represented κατὰ δυναμιν. The realist forgets that the Object ceases to be Object apart from its reference to the Subject, and that if we take away that reference, or think it away, we at once do away with all objective existence. Leibnitz, while he clearly felt the Subject to be the necessary condition for the Object, was nevertheless unable to get rid of the thought that objects exist by themselves and independently of all reference whatsoever to the Subject, i.e. independently of being represented. He therefore assumed in the first place a world of objects exactly like the world of representations and running parallel with it, having no direct, but only an outward connection with it by means of a harmonia præstabilita ;—obviously the most superfluous thing possible, for it never comes within perception, and the precisely similar world of representations which does come within perception, goes its own way regardless of it. When, however, he wanted to determine more closely the essence of these things existing objectively in themselves, he found himself obliged to declare the Objects in themselves to be Subjects (monades), and by doing so he furnished the most striking proof of the inability of our consciousness, in as far as it is merely cognitive, to find within the limits of the intellect—i.e. of the apparatus by means of which we represent the world—anything beyond Subject and Object ; the representer and the represented. Therefore, if we abstract from the objectivity of an Object, or in other words, from its being represented (Vorgestelltwerden), if we annul it in its quality as an Object, yet still wish to retain something, we can meet with nothing but the Subject. Conversely, if we desire to abstract from the subjectivity of the Subject, yet to have something over, the contrary takes place, and this leads to Materialism."

Thoughts?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#2
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
Yeah, I'm way out of my league here. Any thoughts I have come in question form and stupid ones at that, I imagine. I'll refrain from asking until this plays out a bit.
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:

"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."

For context, this is the previous verse:

"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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#3
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
Wall of text... sorry, I only went for the bolded parts and it sounds a lot like the Quantum Mechanics debate of the 1920's.
Does something exist or happen if no conscious subject is observing it?
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#4
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
urgh. I have much respect for Pickup, but a couple paragraphs would be nice. I'll try to get through the wall though, as I suspect something interesting might be behind it.
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#5
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
Lol sorry guys, I thought that wall of text captured the problems with realism so well (though as I said, the E.F.J. Payne translation, which I wasn't able to directly copy and paste, is much better). I'll try to summarize:

Basically, everything that we perceive about the empirical world is shaped by our brains processing sense data; there are objects (perceived by our brains to be external, "out there") impressing themselves onto our senses, and in turn our senses respond by forming a mental picture or a "re-presentation" that results in the world of color and sounds, etc. that we take to be the "objective world." Schopenhauer, like other Idealists, argue that required for all such experiences of the world is an already certain intuitive understanding of basic axioms, or logical principles (Kant' Twelve Categories, which Schopenhauer reduces to a single one: the law of causality), from which the world appears, or is, coherent at all. In another popular quote from a work I have not read, Schopenhauer writes, "It is quite appropriate to the empirical standpoint of all the other sciences to assume the objective world as positively and actually existing; it is not appropriate to the standpoint of philosophy, which has to go back to what is primary and original. Consciousness alone is immediately given, hence the basis of philosophy is limited to the facts of consciousness; in other words, philosophy is essentially idealistic. Realism, which commends itself to the crude understanding by appearing to be found in fact, starts precisely with an arbitrary assumption, and is in consequence an empty castle in the air, since it skips or denies the first fact of all, namely, that all we know lies within consciousness... There can never be an existence that is objective absolutely and in itself; such an existence, indeed, is positively inconceivable. For the objective, as such, always and essentially has its existence in the consciousness of a subject; it is therefore the subject's representation, and consequently is conditioned by the subject, and moreover by the subject's forms of representation, which belong to the subject and not to the object."

It's interesting that the comparison to an understanding of quantum physics in the 1920s was brought up, as Schopenhauer wrote about 80-100 years before them. They were probably influenced by him a great deal, though whatever phenomena in QM Idealists wish to relate to consciousness, while interesting, to my knowledge, is still largely puzzling and misunderstood.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#6
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
(October 16, 2014 at 11:36 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: It's interesting that the comparison to an understanding of quantum physics in the 1920s was brought up, as Schopenhauer wrote about 80-100 years before them. They were probably influenced by him a great deal, though whatever phenomena in QM Idealists wish to relate to consciousness, while interesting, to my knowledge, is still largely puzzling and misunderstood.

The QM debate was, at the time, exemplified with the thought experiment known as Schrödinger's cat".
The QM system is similar to a cat with two states: dead or alive. In QM, these two states can be the behavior of an entity (say an electron) as a wave or as a particle.
The cat is put in a box with some mechanism that, at a random time, will kill the cat.
Without opening the box and "measuring" the cat, you have no way of knowing if he's dead or alive. So, which is it? Is the cat dead or alive?
From our perspective, the cat is both dead and alive, but the experiment will remove one of the states and leave the other.
For an electron, if you measure it as a particle, it will behave as a particle... if you measure it as a wave, it will behave as a wave, with interference fringes and all... but, until you actually measure it, the electron is a wave and a particle... but is it really?!
It's a mess!
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#7
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
Whoops. I meant to put this quote in my OP, as it's directly where I took the title from, and it basically summarizes everything else I've quoted from Schopenhauer:

"I therefore lay down the principle of the permanence of substance as a corollary of the law of causality. Moreover, we cannot possibly have arrived a posteriori at the conviction of the permanence of substance, because in most cases it is impossible to verify the facts empirically... that principle expresses trascendental knowledge, that is, a knowledge that determines and fixes prior to all experience everything possible in all experience. But in this very way, such knowledge reduces the world of experience generally to a mere phenomenon of the brain."
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#8
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
I think that it's amusing that the author talks about arbitrary assumptions made by this or that other system - but imagines that consciousness as a given is somehow different from those other assumptions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#9
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
(October 16, 2014 at 1:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I think that it's amusing that the author talks about arbitrary assumptions made by this or that other system - but imagines that consciousness as a given is somehow different from those other assumptions.
Would you deny that consciousness is fundamental to experience--and therefore, all intuitive, perceptive, complete, empirical representations?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#10
RE: Transcendental Knowledge?
I wouldn't know how to deny it (as in "it" itself) - but how would I use it to establish that it is fundamental? That's after establishing that it exists, of course. Wink
(that being said.....experience...yeah, I could easily deny that consciousness was fundamental to experience - I've irritated the shit out of people that way before in my little comp mind runabouts)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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