How to argue this point?

[Arkwright]

Hi guys

I'm new here and was prompted to join to try and improve my counter arguments to some of the claims I see made by those who believe in the existence of God/Gods.

Specifically I would like to know how people would respond to the following which has just been put to me by a long time friend.

I responded to a facebook post he made regarding the recent discovery in the Vatican claiming someone had found a document outlining amongst other things a miracle performed by Jesus on a stillborn child. I think I have countered this particular claim well enough but my friend has come back to me with a personal account of how he had a persistent debilitating back problem for over 11 years and one day whilst talking to his pastor about it, his pastor said he would pray for him there and then. My friend then claims his back problem was cured instantly and that he even felt a hand enter his body and manipulate his back.

Now I have no desire to call my friend a liar because he clearly believes something happened that day, but I do feel the need to respond to counter his belief that it was a miracle of some sort.

Can anyone suggest how I respond to him?

Thank you in advance.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Simply put; Evidence or GTFO.

Listen, people can claim all sorts of things, and believe them.

If he wants you to believe it, he'd need to provide verifiable evidence of the initial ailment, the method used to treat it, failures of other (medical) treatments, and what he defines as 'treated'. After all, a 'bad back' is subjective. What does that mean? At the very least he could get you the diagnosis of a bad back and some sort of confirmation from a clinician that his back problems are a thing of the past then we could at least infer that something has happened.

Would also help if he could get this pastor to do this again under a controlled setting where the experiment and the results can be analysed and bias discounted.

If he can do all this and consistently produce the same results, then, and only then (I presume) will you believe there is an element of truth to it.

Also, welcome!

[Lemonvariable72]

For the Vatican document ask them for sources and the date of the text. Anything after 37 means ahit all as we what contemporary, you know like what we have for people like Vespasian.
As for friend with the back issues, ask him why the pastor even had to pray in the first place. After all god is all knowing, was he just gonna let your friend suffer till someone prayed?

[coldwx]

Hi guys

I'm new here and was prompted to join to try and improve my counter arguments to some of the claims I see made by those who believe in the existence of God/Gods.

Specifically I would like to know how people would respond to the following which has just been put to me by a long time friend.

I responded to a facebook post he made regarding the recent discovery in the Vatican claiming someone had found a document outlining amongst other things a miracle performed by Jesus on a stillborn child. I think I have countered this particular claim well enough but my friend has come back to me with a personal account of how he had a persistent debilitating back problem for over 11 years and one day whilst talking to his pastor about it, his pastor said he would pray for him there and then. My friend then claims his back problem was cured instantly and that he even felt a hand enter his body and manipulate his back.

Now I have no desire to call my friend a liar because he clearly believes something happened that day, but I do feel the need to respond to counter his belief that it was a miracle of some sort.

Can anyone suggest how I respond to him?

Thank you in advance.

Thank You God

[Arkwright]

Thanks for your initial replies guys... That video is priceless Coldwx.

In response to some of your comments Fidel, this is exactly what he posted on my timeline if it makes any difference.

"Alright then Steve, well would you believe me if I told you that I severely injured my spine in 1985 which left me with a severely slipped disc , 11 yrs later whilst chatting with the Pastor of my Church , he prayed over me and I felt four fingers and a thumb ( felt as if they were made out of pins and needles , best way I can describe it ) enter my back and straighten it , never had the slightest problem since, in fact I couldn't be a Personal Trainer now deadlifting 150kg , with a slipped disc which could pop out sometimes if I just sneezed. Btw I felt the hand enter my back when the Pastor said ' In the name of Jesus !"

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Thanks for your initial replies guys... That video is priceless Coldwx.

In response to some of your comments Fidel, this is exactly what he posted on my timeline if it makes any difference.

"Alright then Steve, well would you believe me if I told you that I severely injured my spine in 1985 which left me with a severely slipped disc , 11 yrs later whilst chatting with the Pastor of my Church , he prayed over me and I felt four fingers and a thumb ( felt as if they were made out of pins and needles , best way I can describe it ) enter my back and straighten it , never had the slightest problem since, in fact I couldn't be a Personal Trainer now deadlifting 150kg , with a slipped disc which could pop out sometimes if I just sneezed. Btw I felt the hand enter my back when the Pastor said ' In the name of Jesus !"

Cheers.

My simple response is that personal testimony is irrelevant. You could equally claim that you were born with 4 arms but you prayed to Odin and he hammered them off (?).

Again, an initial diagnosis of his ailment coupled with a report from a qualified clinician that his back problems are no longer there would be a start (and only a start).

Otherwise you can say there's nothing in his testimony that is believable except that he may or may not have had a back issue at some point. 'Extraordinary claims' and all that.

[Arkwright]

LOL... I responded with the 'Extraordinairy claims require extraordinairy evidence' line and got hit with this:

"I had ' Faith' before I gained physical evidence as Faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is unseen , whereas I get the impression that you may believe that there was originally nothing , when nothing happened and nothing magically exploded for no reason thus creating everything , that's Atheism btw and where's your evidence for that ?"

I'll take that as meaning he no longer wants to debate the 'miracle' claim LOL

[Fidel_Castronaut]

""I had ' Faith' before I gained physical evidence as Faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is unseen , whereas I get the impression that you may believe that there was originally nothing , when nothing happened and nothing magically exploded for no reason thus creating everything , that's Atheism btw and where's your evidence for that ?""

Verbose, Tangential and ultimately irrelevant to the initial claim.

You're right, he gave up.

RE: The bold. Post this picture and let him figure it out:



EDIT: If he's still interested ask him why exactly he thinks you should just take his claim prima facie? Why does his claim that Jesus healed him deserve to be believed without evidence?

EDIT II: Invite him here and let him give us atheists a good kicking with his evidence.

[Arkwright]

Can I just clarify for my own information that he's used the strawman argument because he's replaced my propsotion with an entirely different proposition?

Is that what the strawman argument means?

---

Just an update, he now wants to go back to his original post about the 'Jesus miracle' here's the link if anyone would like to help me refute it further.

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/newly-fo...g-miracle/

[Fidel_Castronaut]

He's claiming to know what you believe/think and then demolishing it (or attempting to demolish it) with a 'gotcha' (you believe x & y which is just as unevidenced as what I believe! YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT! GOTCHA!). It's silly because, if we're really going to get into it, being an atheist doesn't entail being limited on anything regarding beliefs on origin and the cosmos, just that one lacks a belief in a deity or deities.

A strawman is inventing the position of an opponent in a debate (or wherever) and then presenting an argument or evidence that counters or rebukes it. the person doing this is arguing with themselves and not their opponent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

re: Claim. Seems your friend has fallen victim to an interwebz hoax:

http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/miraclewitness.asp

Enjoy watching him try and argue out of that one.

Right, thinkI've argued by proxy for you enough now Perhaps invite him here if he's willing to debate, else enjoy the forums. There's a lot of info and debate on here so you'll pick a lot of things up you can use yourself in the future.