Ministers Threatened with Jail/Fines For Refusing to Officiate at Gay Weddings

[Esquilax]

I don't like any anti-discrimination laws except those which apply to the government. If a private doctor did not want to operate on me because of the color of my skin, then he should be free to refuse.

Thus putting whole segments of the minority's lives in the hands of the majority. Consider for a moment that bigotry doesn't often occur in single instances, and that the social unacceptability of such discrimination is a large part of stopping it from spreading.

You say that a private doctor should be able to discriminate, but you're being short sighted; what if all such medical care becomes unavailable to a person through discrimination? What if every shop in the area refuses to sell to that person? And before you tell me how farfetched such an idea is, remember just how recent segregation actually was.

[Heywood]

The religious ceremony isn't the point, and never was. You'll notice I emphasized that a few posts back. If this business has a venue that sells marriage licenses (a document that directly enters into the US government), they have to follow the non-discrimination laws that any other purveyor of these documents does.

If their advertised product/service was just "traditional weddings that follow X, Y, Z", then that would be the product/service they sell, and people who wanted one of those would purchase it (and I don't even know if I'm comfortable with that, but it would be legal). But dealing in government documents is not something that allows for discrimination, especially based on religion.

They don't sell wedding licenses. The Courthouse is down the street...about 400 feet away.

[FatAndFaithless]

The religious ceremony isn't the point, and never was. You'll notice I emphasized that a few posts back. If this business has a venue that sells marriage licenses (a document that directly enters into the US government), they have to follow the non-discrimination laws that any other purveyor of these documents does.

If their advertised product/service was just "traditional weddings that follow X, Y, Z", then that would be the product/service they sell, and people who wanted one of those would purchase it (and I don't even know if I'm comfortable with that, but it would be legal). But dealing in government documents is not something that allows for discrimination, especially based on religion.

They don't sell wedding licenses. The Courthouse is down the street...about 400 feet away.

Then what's the section titled "Hitching Post Courthouse & License Office" about? Additionally, if you look under the "Wedding Packages" they offer, the cost of a marriage license is included as one of the items. Just get rid of the government documents and they can do whatever the hell they want with their ceremony.

[Dystopia]

I really doubt these people would be fined just for refusing to perform a religious ceremony between two gay people - And they shouldn't be required to do so, if it's a church or something like that aimed at religious weddings according to religious rules - Which forbid gay marriage (usually)

[Heywood]

I don't like any anti-discrimination laws except those which apply to the government. If a private doctor did not want to operate on me because of the color of my skin, then he should be free to refuse.

Thus putting whole segments of the minority's lives in the hands of the majority. Consider for a moment that bigotry doesn't often occur in single instances, and that the social unacceptability of such discrimination is a large part of stopping it from spreading.

You say that a private doctor should be able to discriminate, but you're being short sighted; what if all such medical care becomes unavailable to a person through discrimination? What if every shop in the area refuses to sell to that person? And before you tell me how farfetched such an idea is, remember just how recent segregation actually was.

A free market would not allow for a large segment of the population to not be served. It takes government interference to make that happen.

[FatAndFaithless]

Sorry, be right back, have to go grab my eyes as they're rolling across the floor.

[Heywood]

They don't sell wedding licenses. The Courthouse is down the street...about 400 feet away.

Then what's the section titled "Hitching Post Courthouse & License Office" about? Additionally, if you look under the "Wedding Packages" they offer, the cost of a marriage license is included as one of the items. Just get rid of the government documents and they can do whatever the hell they want with their ceremony.

They are talking about the county courthouse 400 feet away. It means when the ceremony is complete, they will sign the license, walk the 400 feet to the courthouse, and file the license for you. Its not uncommon for a minister to file the marriage license for you.

Are we going to prevent sincere clergy from filing marriage licenses if they refuse to preform gay marriages in their church?

[Alex K]

A free market would not allow for a large segment of the population to not be served. It takes government interference to make that happen.

There is no such free market. But even if - discriminating against not so large segments is then to be accepted?

[FatAndFaithless]

A church as a non-profit organization gets those exemptions. The money gained from wedding services go into the organization's (the church) bank account, and not into the private bank account of a person or persons. Are these people running this marriage service as a private business, or are they running it as a non-profit organization (such as a charity selling t-shirts or coffee mugs)? If they're running it as a private business, they follow the business laws. If it's run as a non-profit (a regular church), then they get the exceptions.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what "numerous ministerial exceptions" you're referring to. A business can't turn away customers based on religious ideas of the owners/workers. A church can, but a business can't.

[Minimalist]

So, Woodie, if some Hawaiian guy wanted to throw a virgin to a volcano would you be okay with that because it is his fucking "religion?"


Or are you just a hypocrite who thinks your jesus shit is somehow more important than it really is?