Atheists only vote please: Do absolute MORAL truths exist? Is Rape ALWAYS "wrong"?

[Clueless Morgan]

FYI, I'm not reading the whole thread, I just happened to notice a reply to my post.

Can't answer the poll because there's no "I don't know" option.

What would you have to have in order to "KNOW" that regardless of time space or opinion, rape was "always wrong"??

Put quite simply, I'd have to have absolute knowledge of everything at every time and in every place.

If you're asking my opinion on whether I personally think that rape is always wrong I would say yes. I cannot think of a single instance where rape would be an acceptable moral action, but this is an argument from personal incredulity. If something is impossible to imagine, that doesn't mean that it is false, it means I can't imagine it. It may be the case that rape really is objectively wrong in every instance ever in the history of time and space, but I don't have access to knowledge about everything in the history time and space, and thus can't claim that I know rape is always wrong everywhere at every time even if I hold the opinion that it is.

My opinion on the first question is a firm "I don't know." My opinion on the second question is "Yes." But I don't claim to know that my opinion is correct thus I have to say "I don't know" to both.

[paulpablo]

I'm very sorry. In the last post I seem to have not made myself clear. I apologize for this. The information I am compiling is a comparative study on Theistic and Atheistic values and convictions, and their impact on society.

Also since it seems someone took me wrong when I said I wouldn't challenge the belief stated, I guess we can do that in this thread too if you like.

So the question... Does absolute universal moral truth exist? Is there ANYTHING where it can be said that it is morally true universally?

For instance: "Rape is ALWAYS wrong" <<<This would be considered a moral truth. Is it universally true? Is it true even if society deemed that rape was perfectly acceptable?

It depends on the definition of rape.

If rape is just the act of forced sexual intercourse then no it's not wrong because without doing this a lot of the animal kingdom wouldn't have sex and be able to breed, sex is often roughly forced, in my opinion probably why so many women enjoy rough sex and have rape fantasies now even though we live in a society where rape is less prevalent.

If rape is only counted as rape when it's forced sex among humans then in my opinion it's wrong. But then I'm saying this while sat in a comfy house in a relatively nice, non war torn country, with a girlfriend who I have sex with around 5 or 6 times a week so it's easy for me to say that.
I'm not totally oblivious and ignorant so that I don't understand why rape happens in war torn parts of the world when soldiers are probably mentally disturbed from being in a war in the first place and are deprived of sex for so long, and to be blunt they probably don't give a shit if it is wrong they probably just want sex, and they want it before they have their bones and flesh smashed to pieces by bullets or landmines.

But yes I do think forced sex among people is wrong no matter what the situation.

There's also the legal definition of rape which could be having sex with someone under the age of consent, which isn't wrong in my opinion within certain circumstances, for example a 17 year old having sex with a 15 year old, they wear a condom, have a good time and that's all that happens.
Or even if they don't wear a condom and the girl gets pregnant, worse things have happened, it's not the crime of the century.

[IanHulett]

Uh, no. If there was a such thing, then why are some people against the death penalty, and others are for it? Why are some against abortion and others are for it? Why do some people think gay marriage is wrong and others support it? Why do some people think religion is bad and others say otherwise? Why do some people believe violence is never an answer under ANY circumstances, and others believe self defense is acceptable? If that doesn't debunk the absolute morality claim, then I don't know what does.

[Mudhammam]

I think rape is always wrong because it causes another pain and/or displeasure, which is how we come to even derive an ethical judgement in the first place.

[rexbeccarox]

Holy necropost.

[JuliaL]

I reason thuslike:

There are either one or no moral absolutes.
As the head of our Mexico sales organization wisely told me once, "There is one answer to every question. That answer is, 'It depends.'"

The only moral question which can have an absolute answer is the one where there are no worse alternatives at any time or under any constellation of circumstance. All others must defer. For example, rape could be the better moral choice if the alternative was torturing all the puppies and small children in the world to death. If the case is correctly made that in this situation rape is the preferred option, the contention that "rape is always wrong" must be false.

I refuse to speculate on what that worst possible moral choice might be.
If there happen to be two such conditions, each worse than the other under different circumstances, then there are no moral absolutes as the two worst ones can each serve as the preferred alternative.

[bennyboy]

1) No necro.
2) Nothing is absolute.

[robvalue]

Rape is fine, and you shouldn't intefere, because that would violate the free will of the rapist. It's better to let them finish raping, and keep raping their whole life if they want to, and then punish them later. After they die.

[wiploc]

Do absolute MORAL truths exist? Is Rape ALWAYS "wrong"?

Yes.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "absolute," but I'm saying yes.

For instance: "Rape is ALWAYS wrong" <<<This would be considered a moral truth. Is it universally true?

Rape is always wrong.

Is it true even if society deemed that rape was perfectly acceptable?

That has nothing to do with it. When slavery was acceptable, it was still wrong.

Would this extend to being wrong for any advanced race anywhere in time or space?

Something is wrong if it tends to make people unhappy. You could invent a world in which rape was like going to the dentist (you don't want it now, but you'll thank the perpetrator later). Then, because it wouldn't tend to increase unhappiness, rape wouldn't be wrong.

Would you consider rape to be wrong even for those who deem it acceptable?

Sure.

And what about advanced life across the universe. If it exists, would rape also be wrong for that society, even if they accept it as normal or "ok"?

Whether people accept something has little to do with whether it is wrong.

I believe most people are agreeing that morality is subjective.

You haven't even asked about subjectivity. You asked about universality. And it's a weasel word anyway, frequently used for equivocation.

Rape is wrong for one group, but is acceptable to another. Is this correct?

No, it's absurd.

So far, in my results from other sites, Theists would regard rape as universally wrong despite those viewing it as acceptable.

Theists believe rape is wrong only when their gods forbid it. They raped without compunction in Kosovo, because their rules changed. They believe murder is universally wrong, and then word comes down that they aren't to suffer a witch to live. Ask Boko Haram what the unchanging universal rules are.

In other words, theists believe "Universal truth is bigger than society, larger than the universe. They would say it is universally true regardless of dissenting views. Those holding the opposite view are simply wrong".
In this case the theist would say that those regarding rape as acceptable are wrong... it is still an evil or "wrong" thing to do.

Evil or wrong? You don't want to conflate evil with sin. Evil isn't sin, it is the punishment for sin.

How does the atheist counter this?

Our morality is just as objective as theirs. It is just as universal as theirs. It is at least as rationally justifiable as theirs.

You'd be surprised how "sciency" I can get I'm sure

As long as you aren't defining terms, and as long as you oppose "subjective" to "universal" rather than to "objective," I'm not worried about you getting too sciency.

[LostLocke]

Holy necropost.

Yeah... I was all ready to respond, and then it was more like...