Does this sound too much like organized religion?

[fr0d0]

http://tinyurl.com/yh3whzy

[tavarish]

To be honest, atheism as an entity can be seen as a religion. There are organizations, child camps, forums, support groups and merchandising. There are outspoken members of the community who progress the movement. I have trouble identifying with atheism for this very reason. Even though there is no internal dogma and principles within the atheist community, on the whole, are deeply vested in seeking viable explanations and scientific reasoning, on its face atheism does seem like a faith to outsiders. It gets tiring having to explain my world view every time I say I don't believe in God, and even more so when I say that there could possibly be a God, although it is improbable and all scientific explanations work perfectly well without that assumption.

Isn't it nice that 'can be seen' is different than 'is'?

Atheism is as much of a religion as bald is a hair color.

I completely understand. I'm just illustrating the stigma associated with the label.

[tackattack]

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Just because he can see the end result of eons of evolution doesn't mean I can fathom it. I have freedom to choose my path, therefore accountability is mine. No I'm not a diest, reading is fundamental

I see you're a Christian, just as I did when you first replied.

Does not Christian theology stress that God has a plan for everyone as an extension of his will? And being that he can see into the future, he KNOWS what you will do. Based on this, you cannot change what you are destined to do. If you did, this would render God fallible. In addition, it is a common Christian practice to confide in God for him to choose the right path in life for a specific individual. Christianity also believes in an intervening God, in which you are ultimately subject to God's will and his all encompassing plan.

When seen from this perspective, you are nothing more than a pawn and are being led by the hand by a celestial puppetmaster. Relatively you may think you have control and free will to make choices, but you cannot have an infallible pre-determined plan and have the ability to change it.

Something has to give.

Either:

1. You don't have free will (There is an infallible plan)
2. The plan is fallible, rendering God fallible. (You have free will, there is a God.)
3. There is no plan (There is no God.)

Of course I'm making a positive assertion, which I don't identify with, but like many others on this site, I reject the notion that something is true based on a complete lack of evidence.

I hope I didn't jabber on and made some sense.

Please feel free to correct me if I have any faulty reasoning.

Thanks.

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An infallible plan is not a definition of free will.. you will have to define. Let me go ahead and cut to the thick of it on this one. Let's go under the assumption that God knows every possibility that ever could happen anywhere. Let's say he writes them all in his magical book reffered to in the bible (quite silly really but it helps to visualize I guess). In his creation he made everything including knowledge. He provided us dominion over all of this everything to do with as we please (free will). We choose knowledge over acceptance ( and continue to do that even today). Just because yesterday is tomrrow is now to him and he sees every possibility, doesn't indicate he shooses for us. If he is an abolute and perfect, then he can only be what he is and would only do what he does. Therefore acting on our behalf wouldn't change the outcome of the result of all the descision of all entities ever existing with free will. Perhaps you don't see his actions in your life because you reject him. His will (going off the naturalist assumption it's similar to our will) would only be focused on entities that focus on him, hence the "you have to believe to see" problem between theists and athesits.
To sum it up:
1- I have free will to focus on whichever possibilities I see as adventageous
2- God sees all possibilities relative to each individual throughout time's existance
3- God has a plan that includes every possible action I can take and he allows me to take whichever action I see fit

[tavarish]

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Just because he can see the end result of eons of evolution doesn't mean I can fathom it. I have freedom to choose my path, therefore accountability is mine. No I'm not a diest, reading is fundamental

I see you're a Christian, just as I did when you first replied.

Does not Christian theology stress that God has a plan for everyone as an extension of his will? And being that he can see into the future, he KNOWS what you will do. Based on this, you cannot change what you are destined to do. If you did, this would render God fallible. In addition, it is a common Christian practice to confide in God for him to choose the right path in life for a specific individual. Christianity also believes in an intervening God, in which you are ultimately subject to God's will and his all encompassing plan.

When seen from this perspective, you are nothing more than a pawn and are being led by the hand by a celestial puppetmaster. Relatively you may think you have control and free will to make choices, but you cannot have an infallible pre-determined plan and have the ability to change it.

Something has to give.

Either:

1. You don't have free will (There is an infallible plan)
2. The plan is fallible, rendering God fallible. (You have free will, there is a God.)
3. There is no plan (There is no God.)

Of course I'm making a positive assertion, which I don't identify with, but like many others on this site, I reject the notion that something is true based on a complete lack of evidence.

I hope I didn't jabber on and made some sense.

Please feel free to correct me if I have any faulty reasoning.

Thanks.

---

An infallible plan is not a definition of free will.. you will have to define. Let me go ahead and cut to the thick of it on this one. Let's go under the assumption that God knows every possibility that ever could happen anywhere. Let's say he writes them all in his magical book reffered to in the bible (quite silly really but it helps to visualize I guess). In his creation he made everything including knowledge. He provided us dominion over all of this everything to do with as we please (free will). We choose knowledge over acceptance ( and continue to do that even today). Just because yesterday is tomrrow is now to him and he sees every possibility, doesn't indicate he shooses for us. If he is an abolute and perfect, then he can only be what he is and would only do what he does. Therefore acting on our behalf wouldn't change the outcome of the result of all the descision of all entities ever existing with free will. Perhaps you don't see his actions in your life because you reject him. His will (going off the naturalist assumption it's similar to our will) would only be focused on entities that focus on him, hence the "you have to believe to see" problem between theists and athesits.
To sum it up:
1- I have free will to focus on whichever possibilities I see as adventageous
2- God sees all possibilities relative to each individual throughout time's existance
3- God has a plan that includes every possible action I can take and he allows me to take whichever action I see fit

I never said free will is an infallible plan, I said they are non-interchangable concepts.

I understand your opinion, but the bible says it differently.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." (Jeremiah 29:11)

"The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord ... "(Psalm 37:23)

"A man’s heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." (Proverbs 16:9)

"But whoever listens to me will dwell safely, and will be secure, without fear of evil." (Proverbs 1:33)

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths." (Proverbs 3:5)

Thus says the Lord, Your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you by the way you should go." (Isaiah 48:17)

"I will instruct you and teach you in the way should go; I will guide you with My eye." (Psalm 32:8)

For this is God, our God forever and ever; He will be our guide even to death." (Psalm 48:14)

"The Lord will guide you continually ..." (Isaiah 58:11)

If God sees all possibilities, it isn't a plan. It says pretty clearly that the Lord will direct you, guide you, and lead you where you SHOULD go. This already makes the assumption that you have a destiny, and God is in control of getting you there.

By the way, I reject the concept of God because I don't see his actions in my life. You can't assume something exists when the very thing you're trying to do is verify its existence. What you're describing is blind faith, anything after that is rationalization to fit your belief.

[binny]

I think it's a dumb idea. As an atheist parent I raised my children to make up their own mind. We never discussed religion or god. I would never send them to any kind of Sunday school. They go to school 5 days a week as it is. That's suppose to be secular, ha ha.

[tackattack]

He does guide and direct us by illuminating the way. "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path." Psalm 119:105 He knows of every possibility we could make, but it never states he makes the choice for us. He guides with his eye and with his teachings not with his hand or his wrath. It doesn't state that God is in control of our path, just that he knows of our path and wishes us to follow the path we should take. It doesn't assume we individually have a destiny. It assumes that he had a purpose, very different.

A good leader, leads through example and a good teacher teaches with understanding not ignorance. Our insights and percetions are miniscule compared to omnipotence, that's why we should rest on our partial understanding. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1 Corin. 13:11. The time frame of mankinds reasoning ability is miniscule compared to the span of time in the universe, we are still in our infancy.

You are free to reject or accept God at your whim. I'm sorry God hasn't revealed himself to you. We as Christians aren't trying to verify God's existence, we accept that on reason and faith. Some of us do attempt to verify the aspects of God's available to our understanding, but that's simply defining the why and the how of God, not the what. You guys can qualify faith as blind or reasonable or talk about degrees of belief all you want. I don't believe in God because of blind faith, or anything else for that matter. I believe in God because of reason. I have faith in God's purpose and plan for me.