Eternal punishment is pointless.

[Foxaèr]

he could have said see that tree don't eat the fruit.

He did say that.

[dyresand]

he could have said see that tree don't eat the fruit.

He did say that.

read the added in parts

[Cyberman]

he could have said see that tree don't eat the fruit you will die ill always punish you and every human being forever as long as they live. better ill set the tree on fire along with the talking snake lizard.

[Cyberman]

Christianity is a single religion with 2.5 billion sects.

So "God" is a sects maniac.

[Godscreated]

Justice requires that if someone accepts Christ as their savior and receives eternal reward, then justice requires an eternal punishment for eternally unforgiven sin against a Holy and Righteous God. This means there are no other choices to be given, there is a limit to what can be offered when the requirements are so specific. Seeing now how this is not blackmail, if hell still bothers you I would think you would want to find out truly why.

(Bolding mine, for emphasis)

This implies that god has no freedom to act of his own accord. I cannot imagine a scenario in which god is required to do something because he has no choice, or where he is limited in what he can do.

Yes, He does have freedom and I would never say He did not. However God will not operate outside of who He is, He will not circumvent His righteousness.

He is god, and no other being can force him to do anything he does not wish to do. Any action he takes is good by definition, because god is above all other beings and thus not limited by their morals or standards.

You're right nothing can force God to do what would be outside His will. God doesn't consider others moral standards, it is God that direct his actions and his actions will be within who He is. God can not lie.

God could have resolved the issue of sin any number of ways. The simplest would have been to offer outright forgiveness to those who sought it sincerely. Or to take Adam and Eve's lives as payment for sin and started over. Or even change human ethical and moral laws to absolve them of wrongdoing. There is literally no choice that was not available to god.

Yes there were choices that God could not have made because they would have been outside who He is. As far as human ethical and moral laws, as I said earlier, God does not consider these things they could not stand up to his moral values for man. God being omniscient knew the best plan and chose it, because it would be best to help those who would seek salvation. God doesn't care what we think about his plan, we're very much imperfect. God's plan has to fulfill all the requirements to put sin to an end and only his omniscience would allow this to happen.

You can say that he chose to offer himself/his son as a sacrifice in order to redeem mankind and that is what he chose, and you can say that you find his actions just and perfect. But I don't accept that he had no choice, or was required to take that route, or that his options were limited. And I think his chosen solution is convoluted and does not make much sense, considering all of the other options on the table.

The options on the table that you and I might see are extremely limited because of our limited life span and our limited mental capacity. Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heaven are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. God wouldn't care for our plans for eternity. God probably doesn't care if you and I approve of his plan, it is His and because He's omniscient He chose the plan best for man and would uphold his righteousness and sovereignty.

GC

---

I can do the same to all you say, doesn't make you judgmental in all you say, and the same applies to me, and the one who can't understand this is truly the hypocrite.

I didn't assert that everything you ever said is judgmental, I said you still are a judgmental person.

And, I've shown that to be the case.

You'd certainly do better to simply admit your failings, rather than firstly deny them, then secondly answer using the tu quoque fallacy (and inaccurately, at that). Your religion is the one advising you to not be judgmental, yet here you are making pronouncements about who is and isn't going to Hell.

Hypocrite.

God has given me the right to tell the lost about hell and how you can get there. He's given me the right to tell others about Christ and what He accomplished on your behalf.
There are verses in the scriptures that say we can excommunicate people from the church, that would be a case of judging someone by the scriptures. We are told if people want listen to our witness we should wipe the dust from our feet and leave that place, that requires judgment. We are told to watch for the wolf in sheep's clothing, to determine that we have to make a judgment from scripture. So yes we can judge others as long as we do it within the parameters of the scriptures. I've only said that if people here continue down the same path hell would be their eternal destination.

GC

---

Always nice to have a system of justice where the accused is dead either way.

also the dead cant talk back.

You will be alive and standing in front of God and given a chance to explain yourself.

GC

---

You couldn't have been resurrected until Christ was. God carries his plan through from beginning to end and If I've an understanding of the last days, well....

GC

But I'm asking why God didn't simply do it in a more efficient way? Is being obtuse and convoluted part of his plan? And why did he start giving a shit whether we were resurrected..after thousands of years of us not being resurrected (since Jesus' death and rise are required, and didn't happen until thousands of years of normal human life and death)? Was he that hard up for praise?

Read Isaiah 55: 8-9. He chose the way that would not violate His righteousness and sovereignty, He made the plan that would bring those who sought it, salvation by forgiveness of our sins through Christ. God being omniscient knows all that is needed to be the best plan, our limited minds can not conceive past the moment much less thousands of years. As far as those before Christ and the years that went by, time means nothing to God, an eternal being doesn't need time nor requires it.

GC

---

You say I want answer your questions, then you say I'm saying to much, then you say I'm preaching, confused you are. As far as I know I've answered your questions.

I don't think so. What is the point now of continuing to be here to fight? And, yes, your interactions with some of the atheists here are not friendly ones. Fighting words are being exchanged on both sides. So they are called fights.

It is clear to me that you are just serving your own ego now. My suggestion is to just forget about this forum (for preaching purposes) and find somewhere else where your message will be more welcome. But you seem more interested in winning rather than in spreading the good news.

And, by the way, you are definitely preaching. Making baseless claims yet asserting them as truths without bothering to reveal supporting evidence is what I would consider to be preaching.

What you consider preaching and what the forum rules call preaching are two different things, I've been here 4 1/2 years and haven't changed the way I answer. Now please present them fight'n words, from both sides and include who said them. Support what you've said, that's your moto right.

GC

---

What is this... the fourth or fifth theist that claims to know what a "True Christian " is?

That's how scripture tells it, read the NT and satisfy yourself. I can tell a good baseball player by the way he plays the game, A lot of the time I can tell if a person is a Christian or not by the way they live their lives.

GC

---

What is this... the fourth or fifth theist that claims to know what a "True Christian " is?

"anyone who doesn't belong to my particular version of my religion isn't a true Christian. And if someone from my religious brand commits a crime he was never a true believer . . ."

I'll chalk up another wrong on your side of the board.

GC

---

He had a right to be ticked off, sin had entered His perfect creation because man misused the gift of free will.

GC

Was he surprised?

What makes you ask that question, we both know what the scriptures say.

GC

[Godscreated]

He killed the animal first and foremost as a sacrifice for their sin, then used the skin to cloth them. God cursed the creation because of the sin Adam and Eve committed. Sin is the reason for the curse and the curse is why the creation is corrupt. Sin started it off. He had a right to be ticked off, sin had entered His perfect creation because man misused the gift of free will.

GC

Sin is the reason Yahweh used to kill the animal and curse the land.

Sin is the reason He had to make a sacrifice, sin is the reason they had to have clothing and sin is the reason He cursed the creation. Now are you starting to get the idea of how bad sin is, if not it can destroy everything.

Yahweh could have responded to disobedience in many other ways, but he decided to screw everything over. It isn't our fault the world is the way it is. It's because he overreacted towards people who aren't even around anymore.

Don't you think the omniscient God would respond in only the correct way. It wouldn't have matter if Adam and Eve didn't sin someone was bound to, so yes it's our fault and responsibility. God destroying Adam and Eve would have been the overreaction.

What they did wasn't misusing free will. The whole point of freedom is the ability to make decisions for yourself.

Yes they did. You are right about freedom, but when we make a choice against who God is there is consequences, a payment is required.

If you never think for yourself, or deviate from what someone else wants you to do, you aren't free. If he's going to punish us for any use of real freedom, he shouldn't have given us free will.

The free will He gave is about love, something you seem to be having a problem understanding. The disobedience of God breaks the love we are to have for Him. God gave us the freedom to disobey Him or live in a perfect loving relationship with Him and in that relationship are a ton of freedoms. Sin is what destroys those freedoms and makes us a slave to it.

Your god is a failure. He wants all free thinking people to worship him, not realizing that free will itself prevents them all from doing it.

That is the craziest logic I've ever heard, God failed because He wants a loving relationship with each of us that includes worship, the One who gave you your life, Really, Really? Free will in no way has anything to do with not having a relationship with God.

That's your story but, it doesn't match up with scripture. I choose to believe the scriptures.

GC

(Today 02:20 pm)

Chad32 Wrote:



No one can do something in a limited time to deserve eternal punishment or reward. If someone thinks eternally punishing people must happen in exchange for eternally rewarding others, then take away the eternal reward.

There you go again acting like a spoiled brat," if I can't have it no body can." Please mature a bit want you. God sees it that way and He want change it because you don't like it.

You cannot justify eternal punishment. There are a plethora of other options to be given. A simple one is punishment and reward according to what you do.

Eternal punishment is for eternally unforgiven sin. A person's unforgiven sin is with them forever, which requires eternal punishment. The above underlined is part of God's punishment and reward in this life.

The better you are, the more reward you get. The worse you are, the more punishment you get. Either way it eventually ends, because your life would be finite. What's left is just continued existence in a neutral area, or you could send them back to earth for another life.

All I know to say to this is, it's God's plan and you'll have to live with it, I've explained how punishment works with God as described in scripture, I'm tired of going over this time and again. This is one choice you do not have, changing how God does things.

It is blackmail. It is evil. You seem to think there's some other reason because you're too busy trying to justify Yahweh's actions to give a legitimate reason why they're just. It's eternal because he never forgives people who die without worshiping him? Holding an eternal grudge does not paint anyone in a good light.

Like I said you're going to have to live with the way God punishes and rewards, you can't get away from this.

Why do you think hell bothers me?

Because of the way you react to it.

What makes you think you can judge Yahweh? You claim he's good, right? We're both using the same source to claim he's good or evil. You say he's good because he claims he's good. I say he's evil because his actions are evil. we're both making judgement calls.

I'm not judging God, I've chosen Him through the gift of Christ, I accept and trust all He says because He has never failed me.
It's you that continues to judge God by disapproving of who He is and the rights He has because He's the creator.

If I made a clay sculpture, and gae it free will, it has the right to ask whatever it wants. If I didn't want it asking questions and acting independently, I shouldn't have given it free will.

Big problem with this reasoning, it's no reasoning at all, why, because you can't do what you stated. Now who's living in a fairytale.

I read the first couple lines and that's all I needed to, you are screaming like a child who doesn't get his way, saying if I can't have it nobody can. You need an attitude adjustment IMO.

GC

Whining like a baby if they don't get what they want sounds more like your god than me. I suppose I can't make you address my points. It's going to make it hard to continue our conversation, though. I suppose if Yahweh were real, and truly invincible, there's nothing I can really do about it. I'm just giving reasons why I wouldn't worship him if he actually showed up and said the bible was an accurate description of him. If you think I need an attitude adjustment, kindly respond to my points and we'll continue our conversation. Otherwise I'm unlikely to change my opinions.

I answer your post as much as anyone else, I can't help you don't like the answers I give. I hope we can still converse, but it will probably be awhile, it's warming up here after a couple weeks of cold and it's time to get back in the shop and build more furniture.

GC

[GrandizerII]

Maybe they don't like the answers you give because you're not bringing to the table any form of evidence to go by. You're just preaching (for mod purposes this may not be counted as preaching, but it's still preaching by definition).

I can't say I blame you for this insufficiency in evidence, though. That's religion for you ...

[Whateverist]

"anyone who doesn't belong to my particular version of my religion isn't a true Christian. And if someone from my religious brand commits a crime he was never a true believer . . ."

I'll chalk up another wrong on your side of the board.

GC

And that's important because you can't entrust score keeping to a non-existent god.

[Brian37]

Eternal punishment is for eternally unforgiven sin. A person's unforgiven sin is with them forever, which requires eternal punishment. The above underlined is part of God's punishment and reward in this life.

Naked assertion. Not only does the west protect my right not to forced to buy your naked assertion, I could care less what you claim. I am no more threatened by your claims of "my sky hero said" than you are of Muslims when they claim "my sky hero said". You have as much evidence for your Superman vs Lex Luther claim as they do for theirs, which is zip ziltch NAADA.

The morality of "love" you buy into is not "love" it is selfish and self centered. It is the sign of a insecure sociopath(the character of god). "Selfless" is what the soldiers of D-Day did. They died and did not come back. They died and did not do it for fame or attention "look at me". Your god character demands attention throughout the entire book, and those who do not give him attention are punished. That is not "love" nor is it "corrective" or consensual. It is the same threat bribe motif mafia bosses and dictators use. It is the same control tactic an abusive spouse uses to control the other.

[Thumpalumpacus]

God has given me the right to tell the lost about hell and how you can get there. He's given me the right to tell others about Christ and what He accomplished on your behalf.
There are verses in the scriptures that say we can excommunicate people from the church, that would be a case of judging someone by the scriptures. We are told if people want listen to our witness we should wipe the dust from our feet and leave that place, that requires judgment. We are told to watch for the wolf in sheep's clothing, to determine that we have to make a judgment from scripture. So yes we can judge others as long as we do it within the parameters of the scriptures. I've only said that if people here continue down the same path hell would be their eternal destination.

Castigating others for doing what you yourself do is hypocrisy. Clothing your hypocrisy in religion doesn't shield you from criticism; it only points out the inablity of your faith to impart wisdom.


One day, you'll learn.