Eternal punishment is pointless.

[abaris]

One day, you'll learn.

You think so?

[Brian37]

One day, you'll learn.

You think so?

It really is silly for someone who claims their god is "all powerful" to stand in front of it as if a god would need help from a mere mortal to protect it.

It really comes across to me as a 5 year old telling other kids on the playground "When my daddy hears about this you're going to be in big trouble".

I always get the mental image when people make these threats of a midget standing spread eagle in front of the Terminator shouting "DONT HIT MY GOD YOU MIGHT HURT HIM".

Fine, someone wants to claim their daddy is going to beat me up? Ok, so what are you doing trying to protect someone who should be able to do their own dirty work, if it is between me and your daddy, there is no need for you, a third party, getting involved.

The real mental reason humans do this, isn't because their god exists, in reality, they are protecting their egos and are afraid of the prospect they are wrong.

[Chad32]

---

Sin is the reason Yahweh used to kill the animal and curse the land.

Sin is the reason He had to make a sacrifice, sin is the reason they had to have clothing and sin is the reason He cursed the creation. Now are you starting to get the idea of how bad sin is, if not it can destroy everything.

Yahweh could have responded to disobedience in many other ways, but he decided to screw everything over. It isn't our fault the world is the way it is. It's because he overreacted towards people who aren't even around anymore.

Don't you think the omniscient God would respond in only the correct way. It wouldn't have matter if Adam and Eve didn't sin someone was bound to, so yes it's our fault and responsibility. God destroying Adam and Eve would have been the overreaction.

What they did wasn't misusing free will. The whole point of freedom is the ability to make decisions for yourself.

Yes they did. You are right about freedom, but when we make a choice against who God is there is consequences, a payment is required.

If you never think for yourself, or deviate from what someone else wants you to do, you aren't free. If he's going to punish us for any use of real freedom, he shouldn't have given us free will.

The free will He gave is about love, something you seem to be having a problem understanding. The disobedience of God breaks the love we are to have for Him. God gave us the freedom to disobey Him or live in a perfect loving relationship with Him and in that relationship are a ton of freedoms. Sin is what destroys those freedoms and makes us a slave to it.

Your god is a failure. He wants all free thinking people to worship him, not realizing that free will itself prevents them all from doing it.

That is the craziest logic I've ever heard, God failed because He wants a loving relationship with each of us that includes worship, the One who gave you your life, Really, Really? Free will in no way has anything to do with not having a relationship with God.

That's your story but, it doesn't match up with scripture. I choose to believe the scriptures.

GC

(Today 02:20 pm)

Chad32 Wrote:



No one can do something in a limited time to deserve eternal punishment or reward. If someone thinks eternally punishing people must happen in exchange for eternally rewarding others, then take away the eternal reward.

There you go again acting like a spoiled brat," if I can't have it no body can." Please mature a bit want you. God sees it that way and He want change it because you don't like it.

You cannot justify eternal punishment. There are a plethora of other options to be given. A simple one is punishment and reward according to what you do.

Eternal punishment is for eternally unforgiven sin. A person's unforgiven sin is with them forever, which requires eternal punishment. The above underlined is part of God's punishment and reward in this life.

The better you are, the more reward you get. The worse you are, the more punishment you get. Either way it eventually ends, because your life would be finite. What's left is just continued existence in a neutral area, or you could send them back to earth for another life.

All I know to say to this is, it's God's plan and you'll have to live with it, I've explained how punishment works with God as described in scripture, I'm tired of going over this time and again. This is one choice you do not have, changing how God does things.

It is blackmail. It is evil. You seem to think there's some other reason because you're too busy trying to justify Yahweh's actions to give a legitimate reason why they're just. It's eternal because he never forgives people who die without worshiping him? Holding an eternal grudge does not paint anyone in a good light.

Like I said you're going to have to live with the way God punishes and rewards, you can't get away from this.

Why do you think hell bothers me?

Because of the way you react to it.

What makes you think you can judge Yahweh? You claim he's good, right? We're both using the same source to claim he's good or evil. You say he's good because he claims he's good. I say he's evil because his actions are evil. we're both making judgement calls.

I'm not judging God, I've chosen Him through the gift of Christ, I accept and trust all He says because He has never failed me.
It's you that continues to judge God by disapproving of who He is and the rights He has because He's the creator.

If I made a clay sculpture, and gae it free will, it has the right to ask whatever it wants. If I didn't want it asking questions and acting independently, I shouldn't have given it free will.

Big problem with this reasoning, it's no reasoning at all, why, because you can't do what you stated. Now who's living in a fairytale.

I read the first couple lines and that's all I needed to, you are screaming like a child who doesn't get his way, saying if I can't have it nobody can. You need an attitude adjustment IMO.

GC

Whining like a baby if they don't get what they want sounds more like your god than me. I suppose I can't make you address my points. It's going to make it hard to continue our conversation, though. I suppose if Yahweh were real, and truly invincible, there's nothing I can really do about it. I'm just giving reasons why I wouldn't worship him if he actually showed up and said the bible was an accurate description of him. If you think I need an attitude adjustment, kindly respond to my points and we'll continue our conversation. Otherwise I'm unlikely to change my opinions.

I answer your post as much as anyone else, I can't help you don't like the answers I give. I hope we can still converse, but it will probably be awhile, it's warming up here after a couple weeks of cold and it's time to get back in the shop and build more furniture.

GC

---

Sin is the reason they had to wear clothing? That doesn't make sense. Actually if they figured out it was wrong to be naked, why were they naked in the first place. It seems a bit creepy. They gained knowledge of good and evil, and found out being naked was wrong. Then Yahweh says "Who told you that you were naked?" Why did he wait until they knew it was wrong before doing something about it, if it was already wrong?

I suppose an omniscient god would only respond in the correct way, but his actions seem to imply he isn't omniscient. If someone makes claims about someone else, and their actions don't match up with the claims, I start suspecting the claims, instead of making excuses for the actions.

Yes, someone with free will was bound to think and act independently. If Yahweh had such a problem with that, he shouldn't have given humans free will. It's still his fault for thinking otherwise.

I don't think I misunderstand what love is. Love is about thinking of other people above yourself. Something Yahweh never does. There is no freedom in slavery, which is what you have when someone else has complete power over your thoughts and actions. If he cursed the world and all Humans just because of one slip up, it wasn't about love. Only forgiving someone if they beg forgiveness and worship you isn't love.

So it's eternal because Yahweh holds a grudge for eternity. What a horrible monster.

I don't really have any choice but to live with it. I can't honestly, in good conscience, worship the creature described in the bible.

Because of the way I react to it? That established THAT it bothers me. I'm wondering what you think the reason it bothers me is, since I gave you explanations and you still want me to "think about why it truly bothers me".

You make judgement calls either way, when you decide if something is good or bad. You focus more on the claims and assurances, where I focus more on the actions made by him.

No, I can't actually make a clay sculpture come to life with free will. It was a hypothetical. Incidentally, I'm not actually made of clay either, so does your "clay to the potter" analogy not work for me?

[Tonus]

What is this... the fourth or fifth theist that claims to know what a "True Christian " is?

I would expect just about every Christian to draw a line between true followers of the faith and people who are mislead. In the Bible, Jesus said that some people would profess to be Christians and to have performed powerful works in god's name, but Jesus would disown them. The story makes you think that these people were sincere (why would they try to pawn off a fake faith on god himself, after all) yet Jesus turned them away.

But that just implies that even back then, understanding what was or wasn't the truth of god was open to interpretation and may have just been a shot in the dark. Christ admits to speaking to some crowds using analogies specifically to keep them from understanding, while he marveled at the faith and understanding of one or two non-Jews. So the Bible itself kind of lays the groundwork for the confusion and countless interpretations of what it contains.

[Whateverist]

Nice to have so many folks around who share my non-belief in God but who have read the bible so carefully. Interesting to get the insights without wading through all that begetting and crap. I wonder if it is possible to have read the bible with excellent comprehension without becoming a non-believer?

[abaris]

Sin is the reason they had to wear clothing? That doesn't make sense. Actually if they figured out it was wrong to be naked, why were they naked in the first place. It seems a bit creepy. They gained knowledge of good and evil, and found out being naked was wrong. Then Yahweh says "Who told you that you were naked?" Why did he wait until they knew it was wrong before doing something about it, if it was already wrong?

The answer to that question is as creepy as it is obvious. God didn't have the internet or pay tv after all.

[Chad32]

Nice to have so many folks around who share my non-belief in God but who have read the bible so carefully. Interesting to get the insights without wading through all that begetting and crap. I wonder if it is possible to have read the bible with excellent comprehension without becoming a non-believer?

Supposedly my grandmother reads her bible all the time, and there are people who read it cover to cover, yet still don't realize the contradictions and other errors. Like G-C, they start with the conclusion that Yahweh is always right, and if anything seems wrong it's because you misinterpreted it, or just couldn't see the big picture.

[GrandizerII]

Nice to have so many folks around who share my non-belief in God but who have read the bible so carefully. Interesting to get the insights without wading through all that begetting and crap. I wonder if it is possible to have read the bible with excellent comprehension without becoming a non-believer?

Supposedly my grandmother reads her bible all the time, and there are people who read it cover to cover, yet still don't realize the contradictions and other errors. Like G-C, they start with the conclusion that Yahweh is always right, and if anything seems wrong it's because you misinterpreted it, or just couldn't see the big picture.

Which goes in line with the social psychological principle of commitment and consistency (Cialdini, 2003).

[dyresand]

the day when man creates sentient life in a laboratory is the day we become gods.
not immortal gods just well mortal gods.

[Chad32]

the day when man creates sentient life in a laboratory is the day we become gods.
not immortal gods just well mortal gods.

You'd think harnessing electricity would have already made us gods. We're making organs in labs. I don't know if we'll ever make sentient life, but it's kind of like how they have to shove god into the beginning of the universe. The more we advance, the fewer places they can hide their god.