Eternal punishment is pointless.

[Chad32]

That's something I brought up before. It's a contradiction to say you have freedom, as long as you do everything the way I want you to do them. If actually thinking for yourself is an abuse of free will, what's the point of having it?

Especially when we get into the idea that Eve had no concept of good or bad until after she ate the fruit, nor did she have a concept of death because nothing ever died in the garden.

[Smaug]

It has nothing to do with that. People believe in the faith they grow up with and some people convert to it for other reasons then you state. The bad qualities of god in each of these religions goes either unnoticed or is seen as part of God's wrath qualities which are seen worthy and high themselves or just accepted on faith. But it has nothing to do with the reasons you state.

While you're partially right I couldn't agree completely. Though my observation was more of a passionate one there's still an important point. The things you've said apply to mild believers who don't really care that much as to bring up God in their everyday lives on every possible occasion. And who don't care to follow a dogma which is obviously outdated. While the fundamentalists are different. When it comes to supernatural and spiritual concepts people don't sincerely believe things they are unable to accept at least subconsciously. So it's not God who forces people to be bigoted, it's people who choose such gods that fit their views (which they may do consciously or not). And it's not a one-time choice. A person may re-define God throughout their life to fit their current worldview. While some people may have been forced to accept some concepts in their childhood when they grow up and become more experienced in life they inevitably face contradictions in their beliefs (internal and/or external) and get a chance to decide for themselves what is worth following (and the converts are obviously fully responsible for getting into their fundamentalism themselves).

That was the spiritual side of the problem. But there's also a social side. Religion is a strong uniting power. Retaining dogmatic beliefs provides fundamentalists with some pretty serious psychological and social benefits. They have confidence in the future (as far as beyond their death), they have less decisions to make (even if only apparently), they have ultimate authority to back their every opinion (let us remember that the authority comes not only from a deity but more importantly from the community!) and a feeling of supremacy, and they have a rather close-knit community that they sincerely expect to support them. What do they get from leaving or changing their faith? They risk to antagonize their community in one way or another (which leads to all kinds of possible trouble) and potentially face heavy depression and other psychological problems. Let's not forget that fundamentalist ideologies are built upon heavy antagonization and imply dear consequences for those who dare to leave. Not speaking of said consequences, changing worldview alone is a daunting task and many choose to reject reality instead. To add to it humans are social beings and even without knowing with certainty they subconsciously feel the consequences of their social actions. That's why many fundamentalists choose 'the easy way'. They choose obvious benefits of psychological comfort and social support over possible struggle and distress (remember that this choice doesn't have to be completely conscious - I'd risk to say that there are really not much people who choose fundamentalism completely consciously).

[Godscreated]

The plan was the perfect creation, for the creation to be perfect free will had to be a part of it. Lucifer started the fall and corruption by the abuse of his free will, Adam and Eve abused their free will and chose to disobey God completing the corruption of the perfect plan.

How could they have abused their free will in this scenario? Here we have a "perfect creation" that had to include free will, yet could be "corrupted" by two humans choosing the 'wrong' thing. That's where the word "free" comes in, and this god had to have known that. Giving someone a free choice and then punishing them for choosing the wrong option is included in the job description of a tyrant. Double if that person has no knowledge of the ramifications of that choice.

So when children do bad things we're to praise them, no wonder this country's going to hell in a hand basket.

GC

[Nope]

How could they have abused their free will in this scenario? Here we have a "perfect creation" that had to include free will, yet could be "corrupted" by two humans choosing the 'wrong' thing. That's where the word "free" comes in, and this god had to have known that. Giving someone a free choice and then punishing them for choosing the wrong option is included in the job description of a tyrant. Double if that person has no knowledge of the ramifications of that choice.

So when children do bad things we're to praise them, no wonder this country's going to hell in a hand basket.

GC

If your child doesn't yet understand right from wrong then throwing them out of the house because they ate fruit you left laying around seems a bit abusive, don't you think?

[Cyberman]

So when children do bad things we're to praise them, no wonder this country's going to hell in a hand basket.

GC

Yeah, GC, that's exactly what I said. Why do you always automatically leap to the absurdity of the opposite extreme?

Read again: I said that, in the scenario you presented, your god gave his toy humans the free will to make a choice, even though they had no conception of what that choice would entail, then had a shit fit when they did precisely that. Now you're saying that exercising the free will to make the choice at all is doing a bad thing, if the choice made is not what this silly god thing wanted them to make. Your interpretation of free will in this context is the equivalent of my holding a gun to your head and ordering you to make a free choice, then shooting you for doing it wrong. What a scam.

What you do in your country is your own affair.

[KevinM1]

How could they have abused their free will in this scenario? Here we have a "perfect creation" that had to include free will, yet could be "corrupted" by two humans choosing the 'wrong' thing. That's where the word "free" comes in, and this god had to have known that. Giving someone a free choice and then punishing them for choosing the wrong option is included in the job description of a tyrant. Double if that person has no knowledge of the ramifications of that choice.

So when children do bad things we're to praise them, no wonder this country's going to hell in a hand basket.

GC

Hell is punishment without the possibility of the person being punished ever making amends or otherwise changing their behavior going forward. You know, that whole 'eternal' description.

My only conclusion is that, to stretch the parent/child metaphor to its logical conclusion, god laid down some rules, but isn't actually around to personally take an active role in his children's lives. Those children are supposed to act correctly because they live in a perpetual state of "Just wait until your father gets home!" But god never really shows up, does he? No, punishment is only meted out once those children have died - when it doesn't matter because it's not a corrective tool, merely a punitive one. It's a poor deterrent precisely because we don't know if it - eternal damnation - is actually a thing.

So, god's an asshole deadbeat dad, only coming around to piss on everyone once it's too late. How inspiring.

[The Valkyrie]

How could they have abused their free will in this scenario? Here we have a "perfect creation" that had to include free will, yet could be "corrupted" by two humans choosing the 'wrong' thing. That's where the word "free" comes in, and this god had to have known that. Giving someone a free choice and then punishing them for choosing the wrong option is included in the job description of a tyrant. Double if that person has no knowledge of the ramifications of that choice.

So when children do bad things we're to praise them, no wonder this country's going to hell in a hand basket.

GC

Your deity is supposedly all knowing.

Your deity supposedly created the entire universe.

Your deity could have put the "tree of knowledge" ANYWHERE in the universe, but put it in the garden near the curious humans.

Your deity couldn't apparently keep an eye everywhere, despite being all knowing and was sideswiped by the snake. Or, he knew exactly what was going to happen and let it happen anyway.

For their "sin" of acquiring knowledge (something many religions still hate today and prevent people from doing) the descendants of those original people are going to be punished for all generations.

Conclusion: your deity is EVIL!

RJA

[Cyberman]

Here's a thought. Why not put the "Tree of Knowledge" on the Moon, or Mars, or even somewhere around Proxima Centauri? Then when we finally man up as a species to get there and find it, "God" would know we were probably mature enough to handle the knowledge of "his" existence. As Browning put it, a man's reach should exceed his grasp; or what's a heaven for?

[GrandizerII]

How could they have abused their free will in this scenario? Here we have a "perfect creation" that had to include free will, yet could be "corrupted" by two humans choosing the 'wrong' thing. That's where the word "free" comes in, and this god had to have known that. Giving someone a free choice and then punishing them for choosing the wrong option is included in the job description of a tyrant. Double if that person has no knowledge of the ramifications of that choice.

So when children do bad things we're to praise them, no wonder this country's going to hell in a hand basket.

GC

If you notice your child is about to touch the fire, do you just let him do so because you "respect his freedom"?

If someone desires to molest your child, and you arrive to the scene on time to notice he is about to do just that, do you just sit back and shake your head with shame? Would you give a shit about respecting that molester's freedom enough to just let him do what he wants to do?

My instinct tells me you would do something about it. No way you would let your child be hurt unnecessarily. As limited a human being as you are, you would do whatever it takes to save him.

But if so, shouldn't we expect even better from a loving and omnipotent God? Yet, we see way too much suffering in this world that this cannot be explained by the presence of a God who is loving towards his creation.

[Cyberman]

If you notice your child is about to touch the fire, do you just let him do so because you "respect his freedom"?

Well, the only other option is to shoot him through the head. Right, GC?