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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 2:35 pm
(November 29, 2014 at 2:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: It really is ashame you do not understand how God's justice works. Here's a hint, it doesn't require your cynical opinions and opinions are all you have about this.
GC
Pardon my butting in here, if I may, however it really is a shame you don't understand the inherently sick notion that you believe in an entity that endorses what we understand as cruel and inhumane. Worse yet, you praise that same entity. It'd be as if Germans knew of Hitler's concentration camps during his reign, but fully supported them because they put their beliefs on Hitler above their own moral sensibilities. "Those jews deserved to be tortured and starved to death because they don't worship the same consciousness that I do. They deserved what they got."
You may still justify your god because "he's a god". But it doesn't matter. The outcome is still the same. What if Hitler was a giraffe; would all those Jewish people have cared? No, the outcome is still the same.
It's so weird because when I was a christian, I really didn't see anything wrong with the notion of hell, either. Somewhere along the line I realized I cared about my own salvation over the suffering of others'. That's why hell is so effective. It scares someone so much for themselves that what happens to someone else really just doesn't matter. However, a truly moral person would stand at the gates of heaven and realize the cost for them to be there is the eternal suffering and pain of billions of others. For me, there could be no heaven in light of that.
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 2:37 pm
(November 29, 2014 at 2:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: (November 29, 2014 at 10:14 am)Mequa Wrote: I do take issue with your use of "justified."
Let me give an example: your deity doesn't forgive someone for being an atheist and lets them be tortured forever. Since the deity is never going to forgive, in their case the sin of atheism lasts forever, and then the conclusion is reached that hell is justified?
No, something is not justified merely because a deity allegedly does it. A god who would justify eternally torturing a human being merely because said god holds a grudge forever, is a complete fucking asshole. Even for someone like Adolf Hitler.
It really is ashame you do not understand how God's justice works. Here's a hint, it doesn't require your cynical opinions and opinions are all you have about this.
GC
It does require justification, though. You have to have a better explanation than "because he holds a grudge for eternity". That is, if you want him to be seen as anything but evil.
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 2:39 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2014 at 2:51 pm by Godscreated.)
(November 29, 2014 at 2:16 pm)vermin Wrote: DISCLAIMER This is such a long thread that I didn't read through most of it. So forgive me if what I'm about to say has been said.
Does the Bible say that eternity in hell is supposed to be seen as punishment? I don't think it's meant to be a disciplinary act so much as it's just fear compliance. Like be-headings, back in the day. It wasn't meant to punish to discipline the person being executed so much as it was a show of, "See why you don't want to disobey us now?".
That being said, you can't have an all loving God that endorses it anyway. You can't have an all powerful anything either. Ah, self defeating premises.
Hell is not a place of disciplinary action, that would require a release from said punishment, there will be no release from hell. Do you understand it's the individual that chooses his/her place in eternity, God gives one what choice one has made in this life.
GC
(November 29, 2014 at 2:37 pm)Chad32 Wrote: (November 29, 2014 at 2:20 pm)Godschild Wrote:
It does require justification, though. You have to have a better explanation than "because he holds a grudge for eternity". That is, if you want him to be seen as anything but evil.
I've never said God holds a grudge, that is what the atheist here are saying. God has given everyone the chance to be cleared of the guilt they carry, the guilt of being a sinful person. I'm no better than anyone else here when it comes to God and who He is, without Christ I would face the same judgement. This is kind of like it's who you know and not what you do, kinda that is.
GC
(November 29, 2014 at 2:35 pm)vermin Wrote: (November 29, 2014 at 2:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: It really is ashame you do not understand how God's justice works. Here's a hint, it doesn't require your cynical opinions and opinions are all you have about this.
GC
Pardon my butting in here, if I may, however it really is a shame you don't understand the inherently sick notion that you believe in an entity that endorses what we understand as cruel and inhumane. Worse yet, you praise that same entity. It'd be as if Germans knew of Hitler's concentration camps during his reign, but fully supported them because they put their beliefs on Hitler above their own moral sensibilities. "Those jews deserved to be tortured and starved to death because they don't worship the same consciousness that I do. They deserved what they got."
You may still justify your god because "he's a god". But it doesn't matter. The outcome is still the same. What if Hitler was a giraffe; would all those Jewish people have cared? No, the outcome is still the same.
It's so weird because when I was a christian, I really didn't see anything wrong with the notion of hell, either. Somewhere along the line I realized I cared about my own salvation over the suffering of others'. That's why hell is so effective. It scares someone so much for themselves that what happens to someone else really just doesn't matter. However, a truly moral person would stand at the gates of heaven and realize the cost for them to be there is the eternal suffering and pain of billions of others. For me, there could be no heaven in light of that.
No wonder you left Christianity, you did not understand what being a Christian really means, if you believed that escaping hell is the most important part you missed Christianity.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 2:52 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2014 at 2:54 pm by Whateverist.)
(November 29, 2014 at 2:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: It really is ashame you do not understand how God's justice works. Here's a hint, it doesn't require your cynical opinions and opinions are all WE have about this.
GC
Fixed that for you.
(November 29, 2014 at 2:39 pm)Godschild Wrote: Hell is not a place of disciplinary action, that would require a release from said punishment, there will be no release from hell.
GC
Can I at least think of it as the unholy woodshed of unrelenting torture?
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 2:57 pm
(November 29, 2014 at 2:24 pm)abaris Wrote: (November 29, 2014 at 2:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: It really is ashame you do not understand how God's justice works. Here's a hint, it doesn't require your cynical opinions and opinions are all you have about this.
GC
And that's basically what you're offering: Opinions.
You might feel enlightened and justified to ride the high horse, but for the reast of us, hanging out with the holy spirit, seems a little bit excentric to say it in a polite way.
I thank you for the polite way. How do you see that I ride the high horse, my understanding of scriptures come from the Holy Spirit not of my own accord. Yes I can see the surface meanings just like anyone else without the Holy Spirit's help, but that will not bring one closer to God and knowing Him. Hanging out with the Holy Spirit is part of the great promise.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 3:01 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2014 at 3:02 pm by vermin.)
Godschild Wrote:No wonder you left Christianity, you did not understand what being a Christian really means, if you believed that escaping hell is the most important part you missed Christianity.
GC
That's presumptuous of you. The realization of the inherent evil that is the notion of hell came later. I left Christianity because it just stopped making sense. I turned on my brain. It'd be like if I truly believed that people could fly, unaided. I have anecdotal evidence of it at best (David Blain "levitates" on camera, after all), but perhaps you can't see things that way. To you, you have better explanations that demonstrate to you why humans zipping around just can't be done. I have to have faith for my belief, but you just can't even support any faith with that because you don't even have anything to convince you of a chance of it being true.
The reasons I think the claims of religion are wrong is layered, but the notion of an all loving God creating such a place as hell is just one more problem to my long list of problems I have with Christianity.
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 3:04 pm
(November 29, 2014 at 2:52 pm)whateverist Wrote: (November 29, 2014 at 2:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: It really is ashame you do not understand how God's justice works. Here's a hint, it doesn't require your cynical opinions and opinions are all WE have about this.
GC
Fixed that for you.
I wasn't referring to nor addressing we, it was in fact for a single person.
(November 29, 2014 at 2:39 pm)Godschild Wrote: Hell is not a place of disciplinary action, that would require a release from said punishment, there will be no release from hell.
GC
Quote:Can I at least think of it as the unholy woodshed of unrelenting torture?
You have the freedom to think whatever you desire, but you will never find the word torture in scripture and never see hell referred to as unholy justice. It would make for better argument if you actually stated what scripture states, since that's what we argue here.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 3:10 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2014 at 3:11 pm by Whateverist.)
I must be an enormous disappointment to you since I never discuss scripture. Still I do enjoy my word play so I hope you don't mind by occasional (incessant?) irreverent inanities. If you do mind, I'm sure God has a plan for why He is using me test you.
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 4:40 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2014 at 4:41 pm by dyresand.)
GC then you and i for the most part agree that being punished with eternal sin is not our faults and we should not be blamed for it.
yet no matter how much good one person does that sin is over their heads and they go to hell for it. this is a perfect example of a unfair
punishment as adam and eve were the only human beings at the time to exist. meaning none of their kids or future humans should ever
be punished in the first place. If god knows who is going to hell and what person is going to commit horrendous acts of violence he should
have not let them live or let them be born.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Eternal punishment is pointless.
November 29, 2014 at 7:10 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2014 at 8:15 pm by Nope.)
(November 29, 2014 at 3:04 pm)Godschild Wrote: [
(November 29, 2014 at 2:39 pm)Godschild Wrote: Hell is not a place of disciplinary action, that would require a release from said punishment, there will be no release from hell.
GC
Quote:Can I at least think of it as the unholy woodshed of unrelenting torture?
You have the freedom to think whatever you desire, but you will never find the word torture in scripture and never see hell referred to as unholy justice. It would make for better argument if you actually stated what scripture states, since that's what we argue here.
GC
The hell most Christians describe is a place of eternal torture. so that is what I am going to call it.
The bible was not written in English so if you are going to only use the words for hell that are in the bible, you might as well start speaking Arabic, Ancient Greek and Hebrew.
Imagine, if a young woman dies during a violent rape and she doesn't believe in Jesus then she goes to hell. If her attackers accept Jesus before their deaths, they go to heaven. How is that just?
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